What is your alternative to abortion?

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh ffs Tibs.....in case the dripping sarcasm and trainwreck style pleasure I get from watching this whole "libertarian" thing go down (in my country, my government, my media) of late hasn't made it plainly clear to you......

I don't think that they are libertarians either.

What you or I think, what a political party who has not been able to gain significant power thinks - and what representatives currently in power are peddling...are entirely different things. Right now, the peddlers appear to have the advantage. Here our "libertarian" politicians (specifically our high profile ones) are just republicans - if you happen to be in a conversation with someone who calls themselves a libertarian...it's a good bet that they're just republicans, help me to explain this to you some other way?

[Tiberius]

Here our "libertarian" politicians (specifically our high profile ones) are just republicans - help me to explain this to you some other way?

You've just said it. They are just republicans. Thank you. We finally got there.

Glad you don't think that so-called Libertarians are not actually Libertarians. It would have been much easier if you'd actually said that at the start rather that argue against my perfectly valid points about definitions.

[Kayenneh]

Forced sterilization of the poor.
Forced sterilization of all teenagers.
Forced labor camps.
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I'm trolling by the way. :-)

For fuck's sake Tibs, don't say stuff like that with a straight face!

[The Grand Nudger]

You've just said it. They are just republicans. Thank you. We finally got there.

That's exactly what min is constantly fucking with you about........and exactly what I've been trying to help you understand about our political landscape.

Glad you don't think that so-called Libertarians are not actually Libertarians. It would have been much easier if you'd actually said that at the start rather that argue against my perfectly valid points about definitions.

No, I don't, but they do, and their constituency seems to think the label fits. Your "perfectly valid points about definitions" don't have a lot of teeth in our politics - you understand? Libertarian, like any other label they assign to themselves, becomes exactly what they say it is. If the only "libertarians" in power are really -just republicans- if this continues...what do you think it;s going to mean to be a "libertarian"? Much easier if I said it at the start? Go back, and read the part where I apologized that your ideology had been hijacked.....................

[Tiberius]

That's exactly what min is constantly fucking with you about........and exactly what I've been trying to help you understand about our political landscape.

No, I don't, but they do, and their constituency seems to think the label fits. Your "perfectly valid points about definitions" don't have a lot of teeth in our politics - you understand?

Look, all I know is that I frequent a few Libertarian sites on the internet, full of American Libertarians...real Libertarians, and they are more than happy to trash Libertarian pretenders.

My question to you is, if you think citizens are being convinced to call themselves Libertarians because of people like Rand Paul, where are these people in the Libertarian movement? Why have they not taken over the Libertarian forums? Why, when you search for "Libertarianism" on any search engine, do you first and foremost, find accurate sites about real Libertarianism?

If Libertarianism has been (or is being) re-defined, that would not be the case, which is why quite frankly I think you are full of bullshit on that particular point.

[The Grand Nudger]

To put this another way - hopefully eliciting some giggles. Here in the US, there are two trains that have "libertarian" printed on their engines. Unfortunately the one that is actually full of libertarians -lets call it "The True Scot" - isn't even on the track. The other train -lets call it "The Shitbird Express"- is not only on the track, but moving so quickly that the rivets are coming out of the rails.

They're still at the same forums they were at before, largely neo-con/repub - and.or they're too busy for forums, what with catching up on Glenn Beck (a libertarian..remember) on his new "more libertarian" network...... I mentioned that already..they don't feel the need to change anything, they think that Rand Paul is a fucking libertarian...remember?

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You -had to- have seen this shit on libertarian forums, because when I google it -it comes up on libertarian forums and blogs.....and you mentioned it yourself, bashing pretenders......

[Tiberius]

My point, I think, still stands. The definition of libertarian is not changing because of these people. If you look up the definition, it's still what it has always meant. I don't deny that these people are using the word, but sooner or later, someone is going to pick up a fucking dictionary and say "well, wait a minute, you guys aren't actually libertarians".

There is only so long they can play that game before someone calls them out. I don't believe for one moment that they will be able to influence the definition of the word in the slightest, and as long as that definition remains alive on the Internet, they aren't going to hijack Libertarianism as a movement.

Besides, despite there not being many Libertarians in elected positions (though there are some, so I reject your assertion that they aren't even on the track), there are plenty of famous Libertarians in other positions of "authority" (John Stossel and Andrew Napolitano, as Fox News contributors are very good examples, given that they are speaking to the very people you think are hijacking the Libertarian cause).

[The Grand Nudger]

No Tibs, and I agree with you on that (though it wouldn't be the first time that something took on a new definition - or a different set of principles was attached to the same ideological name...look at how our two parties have essentially swapped places in the course of their history), but the popular perception of what it means to be a libertarian is something altogether more malleable, wouldn't you agree? What do you think carries more heft in politics, the dictionary in our hands or popular perception?

People do call them out, they plug along unphased and their pr machine is well funded.

Well, you can reject my assertion all you like, but if we line up "real libertarians" next to "fake libertarians" one train is on the track and the other is not. It's a comparative analogy.

I believe John Stossel interviewed Rand Paul a few years back, would have been a good time to call him out on that libertarian thing eh? Did he?

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Speaking of the Pauls, When will the folks who call out his daddy, Ron, for being a fake libertarian manage to change the popular perception that -he- was a libertarian?

[Tex]

Which messures to avoid unwanted pregancies would you aprove off?

Abstinence, sex ed, condoms, NFP. Maybe the pill, but I haven't done enough research on it. Right now I have a whole bunch of catholics tell me it's harms the lining and can cause sterility. I would approve plan B, but if there is already conception and the baby is small enough, the body doesn't keep it and instead expels the baby.

Which messures to prevent single mums from drifting into poverty would you aprove of?

Marriage before baby is always preferable, but when that is not the case, if the situation is strictly financial and this is the magical world of super-perfect land, a church is the best thing. They would be able to give both child care and resources. However, this isn't the world of super-perfect land, so instead I would love to see a nice system that works a lot like food stamps where things like formula and and diapers are paid for. This way, moms specifically can buy what they need for the kids. Also, if job-finding agencies would set a priority to single moms or have a division specifically for single moms, that would be awesome. The other needs would all be mental, and friends are the only ones that can help with that.

Which mesures to prevent teen preagnacies would you aprove of?

Abstinence and sex ed. I can't approve of condoms here because they're not married, else I would. However, in sex ed, I would definitely have it explained that condoms are an easy was to improve chances of avoiding pregnancy. I do realize people are going to have sex outside of marriage and would like to see education give knowledge about how to do it safely. I would not like education to encourage it.

Which messures to avoid parents from drifting into poverty would you aprove of?

Same as single mother.

Which messures to ensure that a child does not become a burden on the mothers carreer and life would you aprove of?

The father can stay at home? Assuming a single mom, the child will always be a burden on the career regardless. The kid can't be ignored by mom. She has a duty to be a mother. Day care can be compensated for since it might be a must, but the "I have to pick up my kid" or the "No, I can't go network late into the night, I have a child" will never end. The child has a dependency on the mother that is greatest when young. There are huge burdens that the child will give the mother right from the start. Not all can be prevented.

The worst part is that this is how we have to look at pregnancy. It's a baby. They're very needy, but we shouldn't mind giving. As they grow they become more independent, but the care we have for them should never change.

Which messures for unwanted preagnancies would you aprove of?

Avoiding pregnancy is the only option I approve of.

And finaly: at which age is it alright to watch a person die or kill a person?

Ordinary care and extra-ordinary care are complicated topics, but there isn't a set age.

[John V]

Alternatives to abortion? Uh, abstinence, contraception, adoption. Not exactly rocket surgery.