A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[paulpablo]

My argument is that making it legal for 9 year olds to marry opens up the flood gates for wide spread child abuse, children giving birth which is not advisable on health grounds and so on and so on.

You say even with laws in place 9 year olds will still have sex.
Well even with Islamic laws in place muslims will still disobey these laws but with the aditional factor that it is now perfectly legal for them to talk to a childs parents and get her to marry him.

With your logic I could just say we shouldn't waste money on a police force because good people shouldn't disobey the law, but they do.

I just provided you with stacks of examples where due to Islamic law on girls being married as young as 9 you DO see the following things.

Child abuse, lack of education for young girls forced into marriage, young girls dying trying to give birth, men beating their wifes (perfectly fine in islamic law) and so on.

Now you say domestic abuse happens in all cultures, do you think forced marriages happen more in islamic countries or in england, or america or france? What about forced marriages of children?

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Islamic laws are not suppose to prevent wrong doings

AHHHH HAAAAA right now I think we have got to the bottom of the problem, well in my opinion, laws and systems that prevent wrong doings are better than those that don't, so by you saying Islamic laws are not suppose to prevent wrong doings and that is fine by your standards it isn't by mine.

I enjoy living in a country with laws that do try and prevent wrong doings, especially towards things like men having sex with children, taking them out of education, getting them pregnant and beating them and so on.

It's just the fact that me and you have different standards.

[Muslim Scholar]

My argument is that making it legal for 9 year olds to marry opens up the flood gates for wide spread child abuse, children giving birth which is not advisable on health grounds and so on and so on.

You say even with laws in place 9 year olds will still have sex.
Well even with Islamic laws in place muslims will still disobey these laws but with the aditional factor that it is now perfectly legal for them to talk to a childs parents and get her to marry him.

As all of you refused to give another system, let's compare it to US laws
or give a specific example then see how it will/should be treated under different laws.

What is better for a girl at 9 that wants sex?
to marry under Islamic rules and restrictions
or to have sex with another boy (17 for example) without marriage.

I enjoy living in a country with laws that do try and prevent wrong doings, especially towards things like men having sex with children,

But none of them prevent a child from having sex with another child.

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All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

I asked for a proof not for a link
NO, People are not equal
Just think like that (If there is a God and he asked humans to worship him, then a non-follower is a criminal and should not be treated equally)

What do you mean? Islam doesn't allow rape

Forcing a woman to have sex with her husband, though she doesn't want to is according to Swedish (and many other countries') law rape.

It is not permitted in Islam

Men are allowed to beat their wives (and children) but not strong and not on face, it something like spanking a child
And if the wife doesn't like too much, she can divorce her husband.

Again, physical violence, no matter how 'mild' is against the law.

Laws are not proofs.

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Yes a Muslim can have 4 wives, your argument is that women are equal to men; can you prove that?

Seriously???

I can prove otherwise!!!

A wife is not a child (or shouldn't be). A wife should be a partner in life. If you wouldn't "spank" a business partner, then you shouldn't "spank" your wife.

Sometimes a wife needs a disciplinary action
Do you know any successful system in life that is not hierarchical?
Business, Politics, Sports, Religion, Legal all are hierarchical system where leaders/managers are on top then people follow them.
Marriage is the same, the man is the leader and his wife submit to him, it doesn't mean that she blindly obey him, there are discussions and opinions but the man leads
That is why the rate of divorce (failure) is much higher in the western countries.

[Kayenneh]

I asked for a proof not for a link
NO, People are not equal
Just think like that (If there is a God and he asked humans to worship him, then a non-follower is a criminal and should not be treated equally)

It's not a link, it's an extract from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which every nation (that would be 193) belonging to the UN must adhere to it. Why do you think that all human beings are not born equal?

It is not permitted in Islam

Yet it happens way too often.

Laws are not proofs.

Oh really? Now that's fascinating, and I bet I'm going to quote you later this particular and very interesting phrase.
No, laws are not proof, but as long as you live in a country with a certain set of laws, you are bound to follow them.

[Muslim Scholar]

It's not a link, it's an extract from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which every nation (that would be 193) belonging to the UN must adhere to it. Why do you think that all human beings are not born equal?

As I said if God exists, how a believer is equal to a non-believer
Even in almost all countries, there is punishment for "Major treason" which is sometimes death
If turning against a country is a crime; How about turning away from God???

It is not permitted in Islam

Yet it happens way too often.

I don't think that your sources are correct!

No, laws are not proof, but as long as you live in a country with a certain set of laws, you are bound to follow them.

So What? It doesn't proof anything to be right or wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

As all of you refused to give another system, let's compare it to US laws
or give a specific example then see how it will/should be treated under different laws.

What is better for a girl at 9 that wants sex?
to marry under Islamic rules and restrictions
or to have sex with another boy (17 for example) without marriage.

Neither, both are illegal. Marriage does not redeem child molestation. It does not "make it better"

But none of them prevent a child from having sex with another child.

Actually they do (though not in the preventative, our laws are reactionary-even if they are designed to be preventative), but often when both children are of comparable age we with-hold blame, conceding that neither child is truly of age to be cognizant of a crime, making it difficult to hold either accountable. The 17-9 example offered above would not be one of thse times. A 17 year old would most likely be charged with everything the law allowed (and may even be tried as an adult-depending on the severity of the charges).

NO, People are not equal
Just think like that (If there is a God and he asked humans to worship him, then a non-follower is a criminal and should not be treated equally)

They may not be, but certainly not for that reason (though I can think of a related reason that they may not be based upon that statement) - nevertheless, whether or not they are equal doesn't tell us whether or not we should treat them as though they are. Some societies and individuals have found it useful to go ahead and go with equality - for obvious reasons. Would you object to my treating you like a sub-human based upon your comment above?

Sometimes a wife needs a disciplinary action

Sure, when she commits a crime- it doesn;t matter whether or not she's someones wife and her husband isn;t empowered to dish out the punitive action. Here, we call that assault and battery, or domestic violence.

Do you know any successful system in life that is not hierarchical?
Business, Politics, Sports, Religion, Legal all are hierarchical system where leaders/managers are on top then people follow them.
Marriage is the same, the man is the leader and his wife submit to him, it doesn't mean that she blindly obey him, there are discussions and opinions but the man leads
That is why the rate of divorce (failure) is much higher in the western countries.

Plenty actually, yes. Cooperation and lateral management have been shown time and time again to lead to better decision-making (especially in that the mistake of the one at the top does not carry all the way down to the bottom). Not that the existence of hierarchies or other forms of organization makes any case as to which is the better of any two options in any given scenario. Regardless, whether or not there is any benefit to be had from a hierarchy does not address who should be at the head. Why not submit to your wife ( I suspect that many men, muslim or not, actually do this already..and sometimes don't even realize it - pussy is a powerful negotiating tool-so long as she spreads those legs you might come out thinking that you "won"..lol)? She may be a better leader than you. I think that one reason for divorce rates being higher in western countries might be that you can actually have one without fear of being stoned to death by a mob or becoming a pariah. If divorce was as acceptable in random shithole-a,b or c as it is here we might see a huge wave of men tearfully exclaiming "I never knew she was unhappy".

[paulpablo]

I already told you, the french, english and american laws are better than those of an Islamic country, as I've shown you in the videos I posted there are girls who are dying trying to give birth while they are too young, young girls being beaten, forced into marriages and so on, this doesn't happen in the english system because marriage to a 9 year old is illegal.

The english system promotes good parenting. So a 9 year old wanting to have sex will be better in england than she will in an Islamic country, where she might get pregnant and die at child birth, or get beaten by her husband and pulled out of education, in england this could not happen and she would be forced to stay in education, and encouraged not to have sex, which would be better for her in the end.

Besides according to you islamic laws are not meant to prevent wrong doing. I like laws that do try to prevent wrong doing, even if they don't all the time.

[The Grand Nudger]

Before I forget..I'm really tired of hearing "western countries". Islam shares the same fucking cultural heritage- abrahamic faith, greek and ane influence...and we've been tied at the hip ever since.

You're "one of us" like it or not. You just exited the train prematurely (but have thankfully began to sneak back on-board of-late)

[Tonus]

Sometimes a wife needs a disciplinary action

Q: How do you tell a woman with two black eyes to do the dishes?

A: Dumb question! You've already told her twice!

Or am I reading your comment the wrong way?

[Kayenneh]

As I said if God exists

Now that's one big 'if'. And which believers are the right ones then? Christians? Aztecs? Asatru?

I don't think that your sources are correct!

No, you obviously don't think at all. You're really pulling the wool over your own eyes..



The black ones are countries that have not made marital rape a criminal offence.

"However, as wives, women may never refuse to have sexual intercourse - it is their husbands who have the right to decide."

"The treatment of rape militates against women. It not only refuses categorically to recognise rape within marriage, but also poses such severe conditions (such as the eye witness testimony of four upright men) that a woman charging rape or pregnant as a result of rape may well find herself, rather than her rapist, punished on the grounds of 'self-confessed immorality' or 'unfounded charges' as has happened in Pakistan."

"The prevalence of marital rape depends on the particularly legal, national and cultural context. In 1999, the World Health Organization conducted a study on violence against women in Tajikistan, surveying 900 women above the age of 14 in three districts of the country and found that 47% of married women reported having been forced to have sex by their husband. In Turkey 35.6% of women have experienced marital rape sometimes and 16.3% often."

So What? It doesn't proof anything to be right or wrong.

Says the man who would rather judge and follow rules set by an imaginary being. Bravo!

[Kayenneh]

You're still thinking that we live in a world where most people have sex at the age of 9 which is ridiculous.

It is not common, but can you propose a system that can deal with the situation?

Masturbation.