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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am
(June 2, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Rationalman Wrote: And don't you dare say: God is so ingrained into society that we follow his morals without even knowing they are his morals. Because that is bullshit.
You think that's bad? It has been claimed here that atheists that have morals and act according to them secretly believe in god without knowing it.
Now that is bullshit.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 10:24 am
(June 2, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Christians claim to get their morals from God and the bible. But they clearly pick and choose the good stuff from the bad in the bible. They like the part where jesus feeds the 5000 but overlook and ignore all the slavery, genocide, murders and rape. To choose as they do, from the bible, they would need an already existing and separate set of morals. Does this not prove that they don't get their morals from god?
I think I heard this argument somewhere on youtube but cannot remember who said it so I cannot give credit where it is due. Just wondered what Christians would say to this. And don't you dare say: God is so ingrained into society that we follow his morals without even knowing they are his morals. Because that is bullshit. This Christian says you should research it yourself and try to present a cogent argument. "I think I heard this argument somewhere on youtube..." Seriously?
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:02 pm
This is part of the research. And it doesn't matter where any argument comes from so long as it's relevant. This is a cogent argument, there are no lies here. It is very true that Christians choose to follow the nice parts of the bible but ignore bad things such as slavery: who you can own, how you should treat them, how much you can buy and sell them for. The bible tells you these things yet you don't see Christians with slaves, this means that they have ignored this.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:06 pm
(June 2, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Christians claim to get their morals from God and the bible. But they clearly pick and choose the good stuff from the bad in the bible. They like the part where jesus feeds the 5000 but overlook and ignore all the slavery, genocide, murders and rape. To choose as they do, from the bible, they would need an already existing and separate set of morals. Does this not prove that they don't get their morals from god? 
-or- Perhaps Feeding the 5000 was not meant to be looked at as an act of compassion, but as proof of deity. And, the 'sins against soceity' you have listed, in of themselves are not the always evil you think them to be. For in the proper context God has allowed all of these things.
What makes these acts wrong is not the act it self but doing these things without God's concent or command.
Quote:I think I heard this argument somewhere on youtube but cannot remember who said it so I cannot give credit where it is due. Just wondered what Christians would say to this. And don't you dare say: God is so ingrained into society that we follow his morals without even knowing they are his morals. Because that is bullshit.
I did a thread on what actual morality is. Here is the OP to that thread:
I have posted this definition several times in past posts.
Morality is man's attempt to establish a righteous standard based on the sin he or the society he lives in is willing to except Incorporated into that standard.
Morality is not true Righteousness or God's Righteousness. God's Righteousness is a sinless standard no one can achieve.
Morality says: It is ok to lie to save your friend's life.
Righteousness says: it is always a sin to lie no matter what the reason.
God's righteousness is absolute, and never changes.
Man's Morality is on a sliding scale always identified by the lessor of two evils.
That said know that 'morality' is not the universal standard of good. Morality is a constantly changing to suit the the personal or civil righteousness of a community of people. What once was moral could now be considered a crime, and vise versa.
I say that to help those looking to frame questions based on "morality." Most of the time it is used an absolute standard when in fact it is not. Morality is infact a righteousness based on one's self or soceity. Christ identified Man's morality as Self Righteousness.
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:09 pm
(This post was last modified: June 3, 2013 at 12:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 3, 2013 at 12:06 pm)Drich Wrote:
-or- Perhaps Feeding the 5000 was not meant to be looked at as an act of compassion, but as proof of deity. If that were the case (which it isn't), and if it actually happened(which it didn't), it would have failed in that regard(which it does). It offers no such proof.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Re: RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:13 pm
(June 3, 2013 at 7:11 am)Rationalman Wrote: I'd like to make it clear, Jesus did feed the 5000. He did not personally do any slavery, genocide, murder or rape. I'm just taking it from the bible as examples of good and bad that has happened in there. I don't know what lies you are talking about because all that stuff is definately in there.
It's a record of good and bad things, sure. To say that God did bad stuff is not what the bible says, and is therefore a distortion of the facts.
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:15 pm
(This post was last modified: June 3, 2013 at 12:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 3, 2013 at 12:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: To say that God did bad stuff is not what the bible says, and is therefore a distortion of the facts. Non seq. You can do better.
(to make that work you would have had to open with -the bible is factually accurate- in some specific or in general, that would be up to you.....I'm assuming you'd rather not do that?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:44 pm
(June 3, 2013 at 12:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (June 3, 2013 at 12:06 pm)Drich Wrote:
-or- Perhaps Feeding the 5000 was not meant to be looked at as an act of compassion, but as proof of deity. If that were the case (which it isn't), and if it actually happened(which it didn't), it would have failed in that regard(which it does). It offers no such proof.
I does if you were one of the 5000 who saw and ate what was produced.
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RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: June 3, 2013 at 12:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, Drich, it doesn't- even if it happened and you witnessed it. The best it can do is demonstrate that there is some means available to materialize or otherwise produce large amounts of food. That's the tip top - of what a factual happening of this mythical tale - has to offer. As usual, no god involved, or required.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Re: RE: Christianity and morals
June 3, 2013 at 12:52 pm
(June 3, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (June 3, 2013 at 12:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: To say that God did bad stuff is not what the bible says, and is therefore a distortion of the facts. Non seq. You can do better.
(to make that work you would have had to open with -the bible is factually accurate- in some specific or in general, that would be up to you.....I'm assuming you'd rather not do that?)
I'm not the literalist you would have me be lover
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