Attn: Christians, We've Heard Them Already

[thesummerqueen]

A "wise woman" who healed people with the medicines inherent in the plants they knew about could be tried as a witch, but in the Middle Ages people firmly believed in the restorative powers of "blessed" springs and saints relics. One man's magic is another man's holy powers.

And any madman, Hitler or not, will use whatever tools he feels are at his disposal and put whatever spin he can on them, in order to keep or obtain the power he wishes to have - damnation or not.

[DeistPaladin]

And any madman, Hitler or not, will use whatever tools he feels are at his disposal and put whatever spin he can on them, in order to keep or obtain the power he wishes to have - damnation or not.

True and as I've said before, we can't know for certain what's going on in anyone's minds or what they really believe. However, what is certain is that Hitler didn't suddenly invent the persecution of Jews, Gypsies and gays out of thin air. He build upon bigotries that had festered in Europe for so long, bigotries that had been built up by Christianity.

[fr0d0]

"by Christianity", not by Christ like actions.

[thesummerqueen]

"by Christianity", not by Christ like actions.

So what? We've established before that the people who identify as Christians rarely act as their 'messiah' would have bid them to.

[fr0d0]

Indeed. The name Christian, as with any other position, becomes meaningless when expanded to include practices which oppose it.

[thesummerqueen]

But then you fall into a No True Scotsman. It's the same when we argue with Tib about Libertarians.

[fr0d0]

I'm not saying that Christians are perfect. Quite the opposite. What you can't do is judge the ideology on actions contrary to the ideology.

[Esquilax]

I'm not saying that Christians are perfect. Quite the opposite. What you can't do is judge the ideology on actions contrary to the ideology.

But you can judge the ideology based upon the core concepts of it. I know you guys like to pretend those are all peace and love, but I seem to recall some pretty nasty stuff within there, about who to slay and who to own, that tend to get ignored these days. Which I'm happy about, really I am, good for you christians, but then we come to an uncomfortable question; what can we really judge the ideology for, then? The people, or the concepts they selectively follow?

Which is the right way to judge and, in the end, is there really a difference? You would have it so that we can't judge your religion based either on the unfavorable actions of its adherents, nor the unfavorable tenets of the ideology itself; that's inherently dishonest.

[thesummerqueen]

Your own holy book places blame for your messiah's death on the Jews. I don't see how your ideology can be said not to include it even if you reject that portion.

The problem is that much can be argued away using scripture or sacred texts, and it entirely depends on who is doing the interpreting. Either way, I still blame Christianity - and Judaism, and Islam - for many ills, even if the ills perpetrated weren't explicitly mentioned in the Torah, the Bible or the Koran - because too much can be justified by the words written therein.

Whether or not you like it, these people said they followed Christ - an incarnation of him, if you will - and they did things in his name. For some reason you miss the fact that pagans could understand that there was a mother goddess, and she came as both the death bringer and the life-begetter. Did Christ not have both a loving side and a war-like side? And could not the war-like one be used to justify all manner of ills?

Christians perpetrated those ills. You may not like that, but they did. People who followed a facet of Christ you do not like invoked his name to heap bigotry and pain and suffering on those who would not worship the same incarnation, or even Jesus himself.

[fr0d0]

what can we really judge the ideology for, then? The people, or the concepts they selectively follow?

You are mistaken. Simple as that. You don't understand the ideology, because there is no conflicting information. You're judging a faith by a microcosm of that faith that you take out of context. Christianity addresses those points fully. Your understanding is muddied by them.