What is "FAITH"

[Bad Writer]

Even if you are spot on with your claims, they are nothing more than that: claims. Filling in the gaps of knowledge with God doesn't answer your questions, but rather stops you in your tracks from trying to find out the real reasons. If the answer actually is god, then demonstrable evidence should lead to that conclusion, which, as far as we know, it doesn't.

[Faith No More]

The universe is caused, meaning that it had a cause.
Before the origins of the universe were rationally questioned, the Jews claimed that an immaterial, omnipotent, immutable being that was not hindered by time or space had brought the universe into being.

Step by step. Like a mystery detective.
Time, the expansion of the universe, was made possible by whatever caused the universe. The cause of the universe cannot be limited by time.
The cause of the universe also made space to exist. The cause of our universe cannot be limited by space.
How am I doing?

You are equating the universe with all of existence.

The universe had a cause, which we called the big bang. What brought rise to the conditions that led to the big bang and whether a "cause" was necessary is unknown. Cause and effect is reliant upon time, which did not exist at that point.

[Consilius]

Even if you are spot on with your claims, they are nothing more than that: claims. Filling in the gaps of knowledge with God doesn't answer your questions, but rather stops you in your tracks from trying to find out the real reasons. If the answer actually is god, then demonstrable evidence should lead to that conclusion, which, as far as we know, it doesn't.

Unless an alternative theory on the origin of the universe can be proven logically, then you may continue to look for it, but a logical conclusion should stand until something else knocks it down. Why be satisfied with not knowing when an answer already exists?
And what fits your definition of "demonstrable evidence"? The theory I prescribed suggests that a being in many ways different from us as people or any power we can harness created the universe. Shall I call it down and make you watch it do so again?

---

The universe is caused, meaning that it had a cause.
Before the origins of the universe were rationally questioned, the Jews claimed that an immaterial, omnipotent, immutable being that was not hindered by time or space had brought the universe into being.

Step by step. Like a mystery detective.
Time, the expansion of the universe, was made possible by whatever caused the universe. The cause of the universe cannot be limited by time.
The cause of the universe also made space to exist. The cause of our universe cannot be limited by space.
How am I doing?

You are equating the universe with all of existence.

The universe had a cause, which we called the big bang. What brought rise to the conditions that led to the big bang and whether a "cause" was necessary is unknown. Cause and effect is reliant upon time, which did not exist at that point.

I am equating the universe with all existence. Nothing exists outside of it (all existence, I mean).
You are considering something that is uncaused. You say the uncaused thing is either the universe or the Big Bang, both of which came to be at finite points in time. I am considering the uncaused thing is the cause of the Big Bang and therefore, the cause of the universe. This uncaused thing, not having a cause, did NOT come to be at a finite point in time and exists outside of it.
Whatever the uncaused thing was, it caused something else. The causation that the uncaused thing caused needed time. Where did time come from? Is it possible that the uncaused thing caused time and then caused either the Big Bang or the universe?

[Faith No More]

I am equating the universe with all existence. Nothing exists outside of it (all existence, I mean).
You are considering something that is uncaused. You say the uncaused thing is either the universe or the Big Bang, which both came to be at finite points in time. I am considering the uncaused thing is the cause of the Big Bang and therefore, the cause of the universe.
Whatever the uncaused thing was, it caused something else. The causation that the uncaused thing caused needed time. Where did time come from? Is it possible that the uncaused thing caused time and then caused either the Big Bang or the universe?

No, you are considering that this "uncaused" thing is a sentient, omnipotent and omniscient being, which is unjustified.

But like I said, cause and effect is dependent upon time, and considering time did not exist at the point of the big bang, our understanding of cause and effect breaks down when we try to explain these circumstances.

[Consilius]

The cause of the universe produced human beings, which produce emotion from the resources they are given. The cause of the universe is the reason emotion exists, and therefore must understand it.
Human beings have emotion.
They got it from the cause of the universe.
Human are most like this cause because they are the only known things that can understand it.
Human beings are set apart from other things because they have emotion.
We can therefore assume that emotion, too, makes us most like the cause and therefore the cause has emotion.
But the being, having caused all that exists, and therefore making it possible for anything to do anything, having set conditions for it doing so, must be omnipotent.
In the same way, this being has caused all that can possibly be known to exist by making everything there is come into existence. We are caused things, and thoughts, the products of caused things, must be compiled of the existing things we encounter. The being, having made all existing things, must also have had knowledge of all possible combinations of things that can make up thoughts. The being cannot help but know everything, because it caused everything.

Our understanding of cause and effect begins and ends with human and their experiences in a finite world. This caused, finite world was caused by an infinite uncaused thing. The first causation was the beginning of the many causes and effects that make our universe. The timeless cause of the universe caused time to exist so causes and effect could make our universe.

[Faith No More]

The cause of the universe produced human beings, which produce emotion from the resources they are given. The cause of the universe is the reason emotion exists, and therefore must understand it.
But the being, having caused all that exists, and therefore making it possible for anything to do anything, having set conditions for it doing so, must be omnipotent.
In the same way, this being has caused all that can possibly be known to exist by making everything there is come into existence. We are caused things, and thoughts, the products of caused things, must be compiled of the existing things we encounter. The being, having made all existing things, must also have had knowledge of all possible combinations of things that can make up thoughts. The being cannot help but know everything, because it caused everything.

Nearly every sentence in there is a non-sequitur.

I also like how you seamlessly went from talking about causes to that cause as a being as if that was something you didn't have to demonstrate.

Our understanding of cause and effect begins and ends with human and their experiences in a finite world. This caused, finite world was caused by an infinite uncaused thing. The first causation was the beginning of the many causes and effects that make our universe. The timeless cause of the universe caused time to exist so causes and effect could make our universe.

You keep talking about cause and effect, and I keep trying to tell you that it doesn't apply as we understand it.

The problem here is we're using mammalian brains that adapted and evolved to survive as time flows to try and understand what happened when time didn't exist. It's like using a hammer to cut wood.

Plus, you seem only to be trying to understand the world from an anthropocentric point of view. It's caused you to speculate that such things like emotions are an intentional product instead of an evolved trait.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

@Consilius: universe started with the big bang, as far as we know.

For the rest of the things you said after:
I have explained to you why a logical answer that fits into "your logic" doesn't necessarily make it the right answer. Logic isn't the only thing in play when you're talking about cosmology you have to address the laws of physics. Which i'm not qualified to comment too much on, so i won't pretend like i can discuss the merits of different theories.

And no, nobody has to disprove a theory to disregard it. If your theory has no observational or testable hypothesis, it's a sucky theory. It means it can never be proven or disproven. Furthermore, there are multiple theories going on right now about the universe. Because they haven't been disproven yet. They haven't had enough supporting evidence either. so that's what they are, possibilities.

You seem unable to understand the meaning of possibilities. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it has to be correct. Multiple things can be possible at the same time. There are even gradations of possibilities, there's a great possibility that a human is typing this, but there's also a very small possibility that a monkey is typing this. Even if we grant that your theory is possible, if it cannot be proven, what good is it?

A good theory assumes little and explains a lot. You assume waaaaayyy too much. Assuming is every time you state something you do not have evidence for. A way to test this is if you try to convince someone of this, you seem to have to make more assumptions, instead of just presenting evidence.

Before the beginning of the universe there was no time. Cause and effect would be more than a little messed up, i would think.

And i do have a question for you, consilius. If you think the beginning and the end of the universe is something you can solve by sitting in a chair, with no math or physics whatsoever, why do you think there are so many scientists building equipments and telescopes and particle accelerators to figure it out? This is a genuine question, i'm not attempting to insult you, i am genuinely curious.

[Consilius]

The cause of the universe produced human beings, which produce emotion from the resources they are given. The cause of the universe is the reason emotion exists, and therefore must understand it.
But the being, having caused all that exists, and therefore making it possible for anything to do anything, having set conditions for it doing so, must be omnipotent.
In the same way, this being has caused all that can possibly be known to exist by making everything there is come into existence. We are caused things, and thoughts, the products of caused things, must be compiled of the existing things we encounter. The being, having made all existing things, must also have had knowledge of all possible combinations of things that can make up thoughts. The being cannot help but know everything, because it caused everything.

Nearly every sentence in there is a non-sequitur.

I also like how you seamlessly went from talking about causes to that cause as a being as if that was something you didn't have to demonstrate.

Our understanding of cause and effect begins and ends with human and their experiences in a finite world. This caused, finite world was caused by an infinite uncaused thing. The first causation was the beginning of the many causes and effects that make our universe. The timeless cause of the universe caused time to exist so causes and effect could make our universe.

You keep talking about cause and effect, and I keep trying to tell you that it doesn't apply as we understand it.

The problem here is we're using mammalian brains that adapted and evolved to survive as time flows to try and understand what happened when time didn't exist. It's like using a hammer to cut wood.

Plus, you seem only to be trying to understand the world from an anthropocentric point of view. It's caused you to speculate that such things like emotions are an intentional product instead of an evolved trait.

A being? A cause? If you like, keep it a cause.
Something that existed before time did is impossible to comprehend on the human plane. We can think about it, but never fully comprehend it.
Why do we have emotion in the first place? Other creatures seem to do fine without it. Was the mind of Homo sapiens an a planned development or an incident of nature? Will these minds become more complex?

[Faith No More]

A being? A cause? If you like, keep it a cause.
Something that existed before time did is impossible to comprehend on the human plane. We can think about it, but never fully comprehend it.
Why do we have emotion in the first place? Other creatures seem to do fine without it. Was the mind of Homo sapiens an a planned development or an incident of nature? Will these minds become more complex?

If we can never fully comprehend it, why are you so insistent that it is the result of a sentient being?

There are theories as to why we have evolved emotions, but let's set those aside and pretend we have no clue. What can you present to demonstrate that emotions are an intended product of the cause of the universe?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

A being? A cause? If you like, keep it a cause.
Something that existed before time did is impossible to comprehend on the human plane.

I addressed the value of a claim like this in my previous post, please read that.

We can think about it, but never fully comprehend it.

I guess we won't be expecting any discoveries from you.

Why do we have emotion in the first place? Other creatures seem to do fine without it. Was the mind of Homo sapiens an a planned development or an incident of nature? Will these minds become more complex?

Animals have emotions. They're valuable things that keep us alive. We're going into evolutionary theories here. The mind? This is, again, to do with evolution. There are predictions on the future of the mind, just like there are predictions about everything else in life.

When i say evolution i don't mean to dodge the question, i'd just very much rather you read up on that, because information is readily available. just google.[/quote]