Why atheism always has a burden of proof

[Sword of Christ]

So if you can't physically detect god, how do you know he's there? How do you distinguish what you believe from a delusion?

It's a big question that's not easy to answer in brief detail, the detail to remember is that God is in a relationship with his creatures and the contact is and has to be both ways he can't force his presence onto you if you're not open to him. Christianity is a communal religion and the experience is amplified through a community of believers more than through isolated individuals. That's why you have instance the monastic tradition.


The best I can do recommend this book which goes into a great more depth than would be possible to do on here.

[pocaracas]

So... yay, I guess god is a scientifically provable hypothesis in the end. So, where's them peer reviewed studies that reveal this?

No because God can't be physically observed therefore you can't physically detect or test his existence via the scientific method. It seems to be difficult to get this point across but that's how it is. You can't have a burden of proof for something that can't by it's nature ever be proven.

How convenient, huh?
The same guy who, allegedly, talked to Abraham, wrote stone tablets, brought a great flood upon the whole world, made a woman pregnant, gave sight back to some people, cured lepers, revived people.... yet... "can't be physically detected"?

I smell a rat...

[downbeatplumb]

No because God can't be physically observed therefore you can't physically detect or test his existence via the scientific method.

If you can't prove something exists then it probably dosen't.

It seems to be difficult to get this point across but that's how it is. You can't have a burden of proof for something that can't by it's nature ever be proven.

This is just a rather unsubtle way of trying to justify believing in something that can't be true.

[Strongbad]

now provide the evidence that shows them in an altered state of consciousness

You can't observe their conscious directly but you can observe what happens to their neurological activity via brain scan imaging. I already posted the picture of it, that's all you can do scientifically.

Oh for fuck's sake. They might as well have put a "mood ring" on the "tongue-speaking" idiots and observed how the ring changed color when they went into their "spiritual state".

Do you think a brain scan would show similar results if they tested Muslims or Hindus when they went into their "spiritual state"? Of course it would. Which is of course an indication that their "conscious" had achieved a "greater state of awareness of Allah or Vishnu".

Utter. Fucking. Rubbish.

[Sword of Christ]

How convenient, huh?
The same guy who, allegedly, talked to Abraham, wrote stone tablets, brought a great flood upon the whole world, made a woman pregnant, gave sight back to some people, cured lepers, revived people.... yet... "can't be physically detected"?

I smell a rat...

You could detect a miracle sure but there would be no way to know it was God, midicholrians/the Force, a member of the Q Continuum from Star Trek or Satan playing a prank. So that still wouldn't prove Gods existence. As to whether miracles or strange unexplained things happen, things that would go beyond our conventional understanding I'd say there is quite a lot of material to suggest they do happen. I don't mean just "the Bible" but in general.

If you can't prove something exists then it probably dosen't.

It's just your own opinion there's no logic to it. We can't prove a lot of things exist currently like say life on other worlds. I'd suggest there most likely is.

This is just a rather unsubtle way of trying to justify believing in something that can't be true.

Can't be true in your own opinion isn't the same thing as can't be true in general. Unless you have some kind logic or reasoning to back yourself up with but you don't seem to have any. Can we just say you have a belief?

[pocaracas]

How convenient, huh?
The same guy who, allegedly, talked to Abraham, wrote stone tablets, brought a great flood upon the whole world, made a woman pregnant, gave sight back to some people, cured lepers, revived people.... yet... "can't be physically detected"?

I smell a rat...

You could detect a miracle sure but there would be no way to know it was God, midicholrians/the Force, a member of the Q Continuum from Star Trek or Satan playing a prank. So that still wouldn't prove Gods existence. As to whether miracles or strange unexplained things happen, things that would go beyond our conventional understanding I'd say there is quite a lot of material to suggest they do happen. I don't mean just "the Bible" but in general.

well then... show me the miracles...
It would be a start... not much of a start, but heck...

I was going for detecting the main guy itself!

[Sword of Christ]

Oh for fuck's sake. They might as well have put a "mood ring" on the "tongue-speaking" idiots and observed how the ring changed color when they went into their "spiritual state".

If you assuming materialism to begin with then yes I agree. But we can at least see they're not pretending they will be experiencing some kind of aspect of human function, whatever it is. If you believe in God you'll believe it's God anyway you don't need brain scans of it. Those were just a demonstration of the limit of what science can study. Juyst the physical stuff we see nothing else. Now God isn't made from physical stuff, no matter, no energy, nothing at all, just pure consciousness.

Do you think a brain scan would show similar results if they tested Muslims or Hindus when they went into their "spiritual state"? Of course it would. Which is of course an indication that their "conscious" had achieved a "greater state of awareness of Allah or Vishnu".

Of course yes, but I don't think that's an issue. I wasn't using this to argue the case for Christianity for that I'd focus on the empty tomb and experiences of the founders of Christianity. People such as Saint Paul. I'm sure the mystical and subjective experience of God is universal across all religions.

Utter. Fucking. Rubbish.

Your opinion is your opinion that's fine. But what I have pointed out to you is still true, if God exists then his nature is non-physical therefore not directly observable. If something can't be proven there isn't a burden of proof to meet anymore than if you had to prove a negative. You're not foisting that burden onto believers it's been dealt with.

well then... show me the miracles...
It would be a start... not much of a start, but heck...

I was going for detecting the main guy itself!

The Space Gnome explains exactly what happens once science can study and understand something.





But if you are interested there is quite a lot of material on the subject.

[Bad Wolf]

If something can't be proven there isn't a burden of proof to meet anymore than if you had to prove a negative. You're not foisting that burden onto believers it's been dealt with.

Whether something can be proven or not, it is irrelevant to the burden of proof. Besides, god can be proven, all he needs to do is show himself. We may not know what it would take to convince us but surely an all knowing, all powerful god would know exactly what would convince us of his existence.

[downbeatplumb]

How convenient, huh?
The same guy who, allegedly, talked to Abraham, wrote stone tablets, brought a great flood upon the whole world, made a woman pregnant, gave sight back to some people, cured lepers, revived people.... yet... "can't be physically detected"?

I smell a rat...

You could detect a miracle sure but there would be no way to know it was God, midicholrians/the Force, a member of the Q Continuum from Star Trek or Satan playing a prank. So that still wouldn't prove Gods existence. As to whether miracles or strange unexplained things happen, things that would go beyond our conventional understanding I'd say there is quite a lot of material to suggest they do happen. I don't mean just "the Bible" but in general.

If you can't prove something exists then it probably dosen't.

It's just your own opinion there's no logic to it. We can't prove a lot of things exist currently like say life on other worlds. I'd suggest there most likely is.

This is just a rather unsubtle way of trying to justify believing in something that can't be true.

Can't be true in your own opinion isn't the same thing as can't be true in general. Unless you have some kind logic or reasoning to back yourself up with but you don't seem to have any. Can we just say you have a belief?

You said that what you believe cannot be proved.
Anything that exists can be tested and proved to exist.
No exceptions.
If you can't possibly prove its existence then it does not exist.

[Sword of Christ]

You said that what you believe cannot be proved.

Not by the scientific method no.

Anything that exists can be tested and proved to exist.
No exceptions.

Anything that physically exists and can be physically detectable yes, but God isn't physical nor detectable so that wouldn't apply in his case. It's not special pleading just the outcome of what he is meant to be.

If you can't possibly prove its existence then it does not exist.

You can prove his existence either through prayer and contemplation/meditation or through the dissolution of your physical form. Whichever you prefer to do first. But not through science.