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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm
(November 3, 2013 at 10:32 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Lord would never put someone with Jobs' faith through such a trial. Never mind making a deal with the Devil.
Yet the bible says he did. What is your criteria for dismissing this story as false while holding others as true?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 12:30 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote: (November 3, 2013 at 10:32 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Lord would never put someone with Jobs' faith through such a trial. Never mind making a deal with the Devil.
Yet the bible says he did. What is your criteria for dismissing this story as false while holding others as true? Only certain specially approved cherries make it into the harvester's basket.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 12:54 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 12:30 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote: (November 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Yet the bible says he did. What is your criteria for dismissing this story as false while holding others as true? Only certain specially approved cherries make it into the harvester's basket.
It's almost as if this YHWH character can be whatever the reader wishes him to be.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2013 at 1:32 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(November 1, 2013 at 10:39 pm)catfish Wrote: blah, blah, blah...
Why aren't there enough options?
(November 1, 2013 at 10:25 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Not like that jesus shit, huh? Pure biographical reporting, that.
Watch what you say. Else I'll show the world how little you know about me, my beliefs and the Bible...
No one here knows much about you and your beliefs. Whose fault is that?
(November 2, 2013 at 4:33 am)Lion IRC Wrote: The moral of the story of Job is this.
Once upon a time there was God and there was Job.
And they were happy.
The End.
WAIT!
...along comes shit-for-brains, anti-theist, God-hater, satan and he sticks his nose in where it isn't wanted. Everything was fine. But oh no! satan doesn't like happy bible folk. satan thinks humans don't need God. satan cant stand the fact that there is a Higher Authority. But he's too gutless to fight God.
And so he takes it out on a human being.
And God explicitly allows it.
(November 2, 2013 at 4:57 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: The story is a theological exploration into the power of God, and Job doesn't take it laying down. He gets pissed off just like a lot of you guys. But he ultimately keeps the faith and is rewarded.
With a replacement family, because all it takes to make it right when your entire family is killed is some new kids.
(November 2, 2013 at 11:21 pm)Drich Wrote:  why do you?
We don't. We challenge people who claim to speak for the ruler of the universe. In this scenario, Satan is in a position to know what he's up against. All we have is you telling us what you (and people who share your particular religious views) believe we're up against.
(November 4, 2013 at 12:24 am)catfish Wrote: You know, if I went around pushing the Bible, that'd be understandable.
Thing is, I usually only use the Bible when some other asshat tries to tell me what I believe based on it.
That just might be because your version of sharing what you believe consists of shedding fragments of it in scattered posts. It's okay to do that, and it's not like you have to summarize your entire philosophy in two paragraphs, but the constant whinging about people making assumptions about you is pretty tiresome. It comes with the territory of being secretive. Own it or come clean, but please stop acting like people should know better about you when most of us don't know anything about you except you're the guy who's always complaining about people guessing wrong about what he thinks.... without bothering to tell them what you actually DO think.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:07 pm
(November 1, 2013 at 10:09 pm)Cinjin Wrote: The Book of Job reveals an extremely bizarre relationship between god and the devil that only our filthy apologists can shrug off, but I'll point out the absurdities anyway and we can all enjoy the ridiculous gymnastics they do.
They are amusing. I witnessed it first hand on this very topic as a close inspection of the texts proves that God (himself ?) is the antagonist and satan is merely the goto guy to get the dirty deeds done. Looking at the tale from an allegorical perspective it reveals that true accomplishment is gained through suffering or adversity - a point that Nietzsche drove home in his, The Will to Power. Materialism, Human relationships,the very system of things, are all meaningless; transitory and therefore should not be valued beyond their utility. From a theological view it poses a number of problems as the believer has to contend with the ideas that:
1) God causes intentional suffering.
2) Satan or the adversary is not averse to God's grand plan and in fact does his will.
"This time the bullet cold rocked ya a yellow ribbon instead of a swastika?" -RATM
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote: (November 3, 2013 at 10:32 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Lord would never put someone with Jobs' faith through such a trial. Never mind making a deal with the Devil.
Yet the bible says he did. What is your criteria for dismissing this story as false while holding others as true?
Well....as far as I know, and by the Bible's own admission, God's hand wrote the Ten Commandments. All else is suspect....including anti-theist comments and their interpretations of scripture!
That said, the Holy Spirit is the real Teacher. Like a "workers manual", the Holy Bible is a working guide. But nothing compares to being taught, and experiencing first hand the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
Writings only take us so far. And to base EVERYTHING on what men (in any situation) tell us? Is...well... foolish! Oui?
God is a living God. He doesn't reside in a book!
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:20 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 3:07 pm)Dionysius Wrote: They are amusing. I witnessed it first hand on this very topic as a close inspection of the texts proves that God (himself ?) is the antagonist and satan is merely the goto guy to get the dirty deeds done. Can you support this?
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:24 pm
(November 1, 2013 at 10:09 pm)Cinjin Wrote: The Book of Job reveals an extremely bizarre relationship between god and the devil that only our filthy apologists can shrug off, but I'll point out the absurdities anyway and we can all enjoy the ridiculous gymnastics they do.
The devil was once Lucifer who was admittedly kicked out of Heaven long before Job existed. Why is god in council with the Devil?
Why does god meet with his arch enemy? and for that matter, WHERE does he meet with him?
If god is all-powerful, does the Devil not know this???? Why would the devil challenge an all-powerful being?
Seems like a sure-fire way to lose a bet.
Why would god entertain such a bet? Isn't god all-knowing? Wouldn't he know the outcome?
And since he did know that outcome does that not make him so much more sadistic - willing to see one of his own dear creations tortured just to prove some idiotic point?
Did god love Job? Why would someone who loved you kill everyone you love?
Did god send Job's wife to hell even though she was just part of a twisted game to prove something to his arch enemy?
If the devil convinced god to allow him to torture Job by making the claim that Job didn't truly love god than doesn't that mean that even god wasn't sure if Job loved him?? And more so, doesn't that make god the greatest narcissist in existence?
"It's more important that I find out that I'm truly loved than protect those I created from suffering and death."
It goes on and on, but my point is, that the story of Job is not one that should inspire. It should terrify the shit out of any sheep. Not only do you have to protect yourself from the devil, but you better damn well watch your back when your god's got you covered.
(Also, before a theist goes and uses the bull shit "god gave it all back and then some" argument, you can't get back the dead, and everyone knows there is no replacing a dead child.)
I have three words for you - Its a Northern Irish phrase
'Well Fucking Said'
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:25 pm
(November 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm)ronedee Wrote: Well....as far as I know, and by the Bible's own admission, God's hand wrote the Ten Commandments. All else is suspect....including anti-theist comments and their interpretations of scripture!
I have a brother with the same point of view. Although I don't believe the 10 Commandments were written by God either, I think this is a fair point for someone who does.
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RE: Yahweh, the Devil, and Job
November 4, 2013 at 3:28 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2013 at 3:31 pm by themonkeyman.)
(November 2, 2013 at 4:33 am)Lion IRC Wrote: The moral of the story of Job is this.
Once upon a time there was God and there was Job.
And they were happy.
The End.
WAIT!
...along comes shit-for-brains, anti-theist, God-hater, satan and he sticks his nose in where it isn't wanted. Everything was fine. But oh no! satan doesn't like happy bible folk. satan thinks humans don't need God. satan cant stand the fact that there is a Higher Authority. But he's too gutless to fight God.
And so he takes it out on a human being.
Erm.
Yeah he does - but with Gods permission! Wait even God put conditions basically 'Do what you like but dont kill him' or in english 'Make him suffer but dont kill him, keep him alive to feel the pain and anguish'
(November 2, 2013 at 6:26 am)John V Wrote: (November 1, 2013 at 10:09 pm)Cinjin Wrote: The Book of Job reveals an extremely bizarre relationship between god and the devil that only our filthy apologists Not looking for discussion, I see.
Why would he, I could take any book in the Bible and you will refute any argument I use.
You generally use the argument 'I have little faith' or 'Your not reading it in context' or some mindless bull shit.
See if I need you to translate the bible for me then God is pretty fucking stupid as it leaves me to believe you with your own opinions! because God clearly cant get people to write clear points down!.
Even if you do your apologetics on the bible theres 3 other christians here who will give a slighlty different view so please explain how God who is uniform and unchanging has a non-uniform and changing scripture.
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