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RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 8:43 am
Believing with all your heart is delusional, however that is not the definition of faith. You should always want truth more than you want to be right. The fact that both Zen and you casually dismissed the above arguements proves you only seek the delusion of wishful thinking to reason.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 8:50 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2010 at 9:06 am by Ace Otana.)
(February 10, 2010 at 8:43 am)tackattack Wrote: Believing with all your heart is delusional, however that is not the definition of faith. You should always want truth more than you want to be right. The fact that both Zen and you casually dismissed the above arguements proves you only seek the delusion of wishful thinking to reason.
You think it's delusional not to believe in an invisible flying man in the sky? Which one of us is claming there is an all powerful being without any evidence?
Claim without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence. It's far from delusional to dismiss an evidentless claim.
Of course I want the truth, why do you think I'm an atheist? Reason makes far more sense than religion ever could.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 8:53 am
My problem is when words are played with, seemingly in order to doge points.
To say there can be valid arguments for God and yet there can be no evidence is a contradiction.
IF there can be no valid arguments then I wonder why fr0d0 sometimes seems to claim there can be - if there actually are then that's valid evidence for his existence so there is no need for "faith" - you actually have reasons and aren't believing on blind faith alone.
If there can be no arguments and blind faith alone is all there is on the matter, then I don't know why fr0d0 sometimes claims arguments or "non-empirical evidence"....
Whether fr0d0's evidence is empirical or not, if he has any then he doesn't just believe on blind faith. And he can't have faith with evidence anyway by the definition I understand - the two are incompatible. And any valid argument whatsoever for God's existence, if indeed valid - is evidence - how couldn't it be? If it wasn't evidence in any way what's valid about it as an argument for God's existence?
To say that you can have logical reasons to believe God exists and you also believe on faith (which is without logical reasons, without evidence) - is oxymoronic isn't it?
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:12 am
IMO you're extremely mixed up in wordplay Evie (your own wordplay).
Faith there can be no evidence for. as you rightly say.
Blind faith is that undertaken without reason... but the reason Christians adopt faith is for a reason: to get something; to be inline with something; to test out a theory.
The point of faith is that there can be no knowing either way. We have personal evidence and that is corroborated by others holding our faith.
So we have logical reasons to adopt faith, which cannot be logical in itself, and believe.
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:29 am
All faith is blind otherwise it would have evidence, because arguments automatically equate to evidence if they are valid reasons to believe that God exists, because that would be evidence because that's what evidence is and what it does.
Having reasons that do not support God's existence to have faith still doesn't give any valid evidence/reasoning for God's actual existence, meaning the belief in God is still delusional.
Please quote where exactly I have used invalid wordplay. This wordplay of 'my own' that you speak of.
fr0d0 Wrote:The point of faith is that there can be no knowing either way. We have personal evidence and that is corroborated by others holding our faith.
What do you mean by personal evidence? If you have evidence you cannot have faith. Does this "personal evidence" actually evince God's existence at all? If not then your belief in Him is still delusional.
Quote:So we have logical reasons to adopt faith, which cannot be logical in itself, and believe.
Whether you think your reasons are logical, reasonable, rational or valid or not - you can't get away from the fact that if they don't provide evidence for God's existence then your belief is delusional. And if you claim evidence at any point OR rational arguments for Him then you are contradicting yourself.
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:33 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2010 at 9:38 am by tackattack.)
(February 10, 2010 at 8:50 am)Ace Wrote:
(February 10, 2010 at 8:43 am)tackattack Wrote: Believing with all your heart is delusional, however that is not the definition of faith. You should always want truth more than you want to be right. The fact that both Zen and you casually dismissed the above arguements proves you only seek the delusion of wishful thinking to reason.
You think it's delusional not to believe in an invisible flying man in the sky? Which one of us is claming there is an all powerful being without any evidence?
Claim without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence. It's far from delusional to dismiss an evidentless claim.
Of course I want the truth, why do you think I'm an atheist? Reason makes far more sense than religion ever could.
that wasn't the delusion I was reffering to. As blatanly obvious by your choice to attck theist A who clearly agreed with theist B in answer a question instead of responding to theist B's assertions. You are delusional about your unbiased perspective on the truth. I would never argue that your personal beliefs affect a logical arguement in any way. That would be ad hominem. It does however belie your preference to attack people (read as be a douche) than deal with the question. This is obviously your right seeing as we're in your house and you're entitled to beat up on whoever you want to in here, and believe in whatever delusion of impartialness you have.
@EvF - I believe he answered your question with
(February 10, 2010 at 5:22 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Tacky has answered as I always try to explain and you miss.
I contend that Faith and belief are not mutually exclusive. I have provided some of the rationale for my level of evidence that suports my belief. I also have faith to close the tiny gap of the unknown to constitute the abilitly to present "knowing of the presence or attributes of God" Because of a theist's faith it's far easier for the religious to become zealots, which I feel is a bad thing. Your faith should rarely if ever outway your belief. Your faith alone should never incite hurtful actions.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:43 am
I didn't really get involved in your definitions and wordplay with Fr0d0, I merely answered VOID's question partially in post 243. That provided the same answer for what Fr0d0 was trying to communicate by the quote above.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:44 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2010 at 9:45 am by Ace Otana.)
(February 10, 2010 at 9:33 am)tackattack Wrote: that wasn't the delusion I was reffering to. As blatanly obvious by your choice to attck theist A who clearly agreed with theist B in answer a question instead of responding to theist B's assertions. You are delusional about your unbiased perspective on the truth. I would never argue that your personal beliefs affect a logical arguement in any way. That would be ad hominem. It does however belie your preference to attack people (read as be a douche) than deal with the question. This is obviously your right seeing as we're in your house and you're entitled to beat up on whoever you want to in here, and believe in whatever delusion of impartialness you have.
Quote:You are delusional about your unbiased perspective on the truth.
Your truth you mean. Calling it the truth doesn't make it so.
Quote: I would never argue that your personal beliefs affect a logical arguement in any way.
I don't really have any personal beliefs. I simply question the claimer.
Quote:It does however belie your preference to attack people (read as be a douche) than deal with the question.
I was responding to an answer of a question. If I wanted to deal with a question then I shall and easily. You no like my comments?
Quote:This is obviously your right seeing as we're in your house and you're entitled to beat up on whoever you want to in here
My house? Huh? Last time I checked everyone is treated equally and this forum is dedicated to debates on religion. I'm simply jumping in because I want to as I think I can counter theist points. You can't handle an extra atheist joining in and critisising your aguments?
Quote:and believe in whatever delusion of impartialness you have.
I have no delusonal beliefs. if you think I have one, please point it out.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
RE: Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?
February 10, 2010 at 9:47 am
No not my truth, a truth or the truth. Do you feel you're unbiased in the realm of religion?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
