Maybe People Should Not Look Up To YouTube Atheist

[Tonus]

What this says about the mentality of people I'm not entirely sure. I just found it a fascinating, and scary, read.

It reminds us that our social instincts are so strong that they can override our rational mind and turn us into a member of the pack. I believe that our desire to fit in is remarkably strong and deeply ingrained and can lead us to behaviors that would normally shock and even repulse us. In a crowd, our subconscious seems to have an even greater influence on our attitudes and actions than it normally does.

The pertinent question may be, can we evolve the necessary mechanisms to overcome that reaction? Or does it still confer some manner of advantage that guarantees that it will be selected for as we continue to breed? Sticking with the pack and singling out "someone else" for punishment or rejection may be too powerful an instinct to overcome. It is a scary thought.

[TaraJo]

I think when it comes to the rape talk, the thing that bothers me is how it gets framed as an either/or thing. As in, we can either teach men not to rape or we can help women avoid situations where they are more likely to be raped. Why can't we do both? Why is it if, for example, I tell my friend not to take her eyes off her drink, I can't also tell guys to leave her drink alone or call guys on it when they(brag?) about doing things like that. And, yet, when I try to find the middle ground in there, I get labeled a rape apologist and a misogynist. It's really frustrating. I'm not saying their message isn't good; I'm saying that they have an absolutely terrible way of delivering that message (and, yeah, sometimes it isn't good). In the court of public opinion, that's a great way to make sure your beliefs never become mainstream enough to effect any real change on society.

As far as the internet goes, feminism seems to have been taken over by a bunch of closed minded extremists with little tolerance for views outside their own. Moderate feminists are few and far between. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but their voices are drowned out in a sea of loud, angry dykes, screaming to castrate a man for daring use the word "bitch." It's especially bad if you ever dare to look at places like Social Justice Tumblr or the previously mentioned Freethought Blogs (and their spawn, Atheism+). I'm really glad most irl feminists (or people in general) aren't like that.

[Lemonvariable72]

I think when it comes to the rape talk, the thing that bothers me is how it gets framed as an either/or thing. As in, we can either teach men not to rape or we can help women avoid situations where they are more likely to be raped. Why can't we do both? Why is it if, for example, I tell my friend not to take her eyes off her drink, I can't also tell guys to leave her drink alone or call guys on it when they(brag?) about doing things like that. And, yet, when I try to find the middle ground in there, I get labeled a rape apologist and a misogynist. It's really frustrating. I'm not saying their message isn't good; I'm saying that they have an absolutely terrible way of delivering that message (and, yeah, sometimes it isn't good). In the court of public opinion, that's a great way to make sure your beliefs never become mainstream enough to effect any real change on society.

As far as the internet goes, feminism seems to have been taken over by a bunch of closed minded extremists with little tolerance for views outside their own. Moderate feminists are few and far between. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but their voices are drowned out in a sea of loud, angry dykes, screaming to castrate a man for daring use the word "bitch." It's especially bad if you ever dare to look at places like Social Justice Tumblr or the previously mentioned Freethought Blogs (and their spawn, Atheism+). I'm really glad most irl feminists (or people in general) aren't like that.

Most people aren't, but feminists ( I mean the really nutty sort) can say terrible things and seem to get away with it. Like this http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

[MindForgedManacle]

I wasn't really specific before, but I think I can summarize some of my problems with feminism as usually presented, and even here in this thread many times:

It's WAY too simplistic. Many feminist arguments are pretty nonsensical, question-begging and arrogant (in some sense). For example, most here would probably say that women were oppressed by men throughout history... and that's it. I mean seriously, the way that is defended (if at all) really comes down to 'Men were favored... because penis', and will say things like "Women couldn't vote, own land and such... oppression!" Well, okay. Women didn't have to fight in wars, couldn't be drafted and weren't legally responsible for their own well-being in the way men were, and men were even responsible for the well-being of women, even legally.

For example, even after women gained the right to vote (good in my booksl I hope I needn't have to say) and were getting jobs outside the home, men were, for example, responsible for paying taxes on their income. So if a women chose not to pay said taxes, then their husband would be legally penalized for tax evasion.

But, I think I'm rambling a bit. Really, I can condense my problem with feminism, as such, as wanting women to have the rights granted to them without the duties that come along with those (draft eligible, responsible for own well-being, legally responsible, etc.) This is really kicking Afganistan in the nuts right now. The women's rights issues there are largely an example of where female priviledge sadly backfired against women, the same in China (maybe to a lesser extent nowadays).
And I don't mean that women or feminists necessarily intend to argue like that, but unfortunately they do so rather often.


*Waits to be called a misogynistic pig*

[Esquilax]

For example, even after women gained the right to vote (good in my booksl I hope I needn't have to say) and were getting jobs outside the home, men were, for example, responsible for paying taxes on their income. So if a women chose not to pay said taxes, then their husband would be legally penalized for tax evasion.

I'm always troubled by people who bring up stuff like this as some form of argument against feminism, because I and the other feminists I know (maybe I associate with a more level crowd, I dunno) would find your example to be a problematic issue that needs to be redressed, just as much as the voting thing.

I'm not saying the movement doesn't have its fair share- perhaps more so- of screamers and bad arguments, but that's not all feminism is about. "Proper" feminism, so to speak, is about equality; one could argue, as I'm doing now, that not having those duties assigned to them as much as men furthers the impression that women are incapable of shouldering them, a stereotype that works against feminism very much.

[Lemonvariable72]

If that is true esquilax then why haven't we seen feminists redress inequality issues such as reproductive rights? Or the draft? How come they often go berserk (I'm referring to the U of T incident) when you do try to bring up issues against men like prostate cancer research?

[TaraJo]

Most people aren't, but feminists ( I mean the really nutty sort) can say terrible things and seem to get away with it. Like this http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

Oh, yeah, I've seen garbage like that. Donglegate doesn't look too great to feminists, either (although, to her credit, Adriana Richards has admitted that she didn't think the guy deserved to get fired, but that still doesn't justify the bad behavior on her part).

I've seen how harmful their behavior can be. I've talked before about being transsexual and so is my boyfriend. But he was also raised in a religious-fundamentalist household, where he was raised to believe that womens' holy duty was to get married and have as many babies as possible and not go out and do mens work like get jobs or think you have any authority. So he's seen real misogyny and the last thing he wants to become is a misogynist, so he goes to feminist sites and blogs for support on this. When he goes there, though, they make him feel like he's automatically a misogynist for being a man. I can't say I blame him because I've seen how hostile some of these sites can be towards men and masculinity, but if you knew Lee, he's damn near the least misogynistic person I've ever met in my life.

Y'know, as much as some of the feminists on the internet microanalize society to find the slightest little bit of misoyny, why can't hey ever analize and find bad behavior within their own groups? Why is it so difficult for the to have good behavior (and why are they asking others to behave better while having bad behavior themselves)?

[Psykhronic]

Lemon - Huh? I took a woman's studies course and we had an entire section on men. Some of those issues were brought up, and not to mention if feminism is done properly such things against men would also equalize. Feminists often do not like if too much focus is put on men because it always has been put on men. That being said, feminists do talk about how issues have an effect on men - they generally do not like when you DERAIL topics about women with men's issues.

I always mention this too - the woman's studies department at my old college (and others as well) is changing to Gender and Sexuality Studies or something similar. Inclusivity was already a part of the class, but now it is in the title as well.

[Lemonvariable72]

And how do react when men form there own groups to have these issues addressed? Some like yourself may be quite reasonable and fine with it. How ever many aren't. AndI think that is what Tj addresses in many of his video's.

[Esquilax]

If that is true esquilax then why haven't we seen feminists redress inequality issues such as reproductive rights? Or the draft? How come they often go berserk (I'm referring to the U of T incident) when you do try to bring up issues against men like prostate cancer research?

I'm not familiar with any kind of inequality slanted against males with regards to reproductive rights, but in terms of the draft, I would have thought the first step there would be getting women as frontline soldiers, which is what's happening now. These things can't all come at once, especially since we haven't really had a draft to make that topic relevant.

Also? I don't really see any feminists saying prostate cancer research is a bad thing? Not really sure what you're referring to, there.