Maybe People Should Not Look Up To YouTube Atheist

[Zazzy]

Well I'm not trying to be patronizing at all. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to think that everyone is told this all the time?

No. In the US, it's constant message- albeit a conflicting one. Look sexy and desirable, but watch out. Virgin-whore dichotomy stuff.

Or better yet how does it affect young men when they know women are told that men are out to rape them all time?

No one is telling young women that all men are out to rape them. Should we NOT tell young women to be careful because it might hurt young boys' feelings? WTF?

[EgoRaptor]

Or better yet how does it affect young men when they know women are told that men are out to rape them all time?

No one is telling young women that all men are out to rape them. Should we NOT tell young women to be careful because it might hurt young boys' feelings? WTF?

No one in the mainstream at least. Some fringe groups like Atheism+ are though.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Well let's think about this. Where do you put the mace? Handbag? Backpack? Zipped? When do you pull it out? Before or after the person attacks before or after they throw your bag away before or after they knock it out of your hand? What about if you were home? Where is the bear mace supposed to go? One in each room? One in each drawer?

My point is a million scenarios could happen. You could jab someone in the eye with your finger. Or he could break your finger. You could mace him, or he could mace you.

In other words you're welcome to try, but I really believe it's naive to think that it's going to save you. It could and it could not.

The issue with idea that individual women can prevent rape is not just the tendency to cause shifting of blame, but that it's fundamentally a flawed idea that so many in our society subscribes to that I believe makes people complacent in trying to actually prevent rape with legitimate methods.

Btw, what do you mean women act as if nothing they can do will help reduce the risk? What kinds of actions fall under this umbrella?

So because a million scenarios could happen you should not do in your power to try to prevent them? That's what I advocate,doing what is in your power to protect your self. Obviously there are a million scenarios that could happen where you would not be successful, that doesn't mean something like bear mace won't increase your chances of being successful at defending yourself.
Let me say it like this, why do you put a lock on your door someone could pick a lock?
BTW the sort of behavior that fall into the category you ask of is simple. You identify which behaviours increase your chances of becoming a victim and avoid them. Of the ones I listed earlier, you should avoid those anyway.

You're not understanding me. The things you have to do to "prevent rape" is fucking bullshit. It makes your life difficult and inconvenient and it gives you no significant chance of survival. And yes, women are told since they're little girls what to do to "prevent" harassment or rape, we've been told by everyone how to "be careful" as if it makes a difference well it really doesn't. Muslims girls have been told that the hijab will protect them, and the rest of us have been told that if we're careful enough that'll protect us. Well, the first time I was molested I was 8 and my parents were in the same room but weren't looking. I had no idea what the fuck was happening. If only I had a mace, right? I showed you the website in hopes that you can understand the variety of situations in which a man would rape a girl and then maybe you'll understand that it's quite ridiculous to think anyone could "prevent" any of that. (Because I didn't want to use my own experiences as example or you might think I'm "going nuts" because it's personal. For the record, I'm not going nuts) Or that they'd even think that they had to prevent anything. It's just that shit happens, and looking back everyone can find something that the victim "could've done" to increase her chances of survival but is it really practical to focus on this? Does it even make any sense?

You keep talking about chances. Chances of being a victim. How concrete are these chances? I'm not responsible for a rapist thinking: oh, that's an easy one, she's wearing heels, probably can't run. I'm not going to delude myself with the idea that if I do everything right my chances of being a victim is really low. That's not even true. Can you prove it? Can you show me a study that says if you're more confident, you're less likely to be a victim. Well what if I had a really bad day? It isn't fair to ask women to do these things with the idea that it could prevent rape when it really doesn't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I would love to have something that will give me a real fighting chance, but let's not drag out all these old misconceptions and pretend they're true. Oh and why do I put a lock on my door? I don't know, but it hasn't stopped any burglaries so far. The only difference with being robbed with locked doors and without is how guilty you feel after. A locked door isn't really helpful, what you need is an alarm system and a guard dog. What women can do about rape is like a locked door, but people somehow think that it's a full grade security system.

[Bad Wolf]

I'm gunna regret this cause i'm gunna get shouted at but
I think you can reduce your chance of getting raped in the same way you can reduce your chance of being burgled. Locking all your windows and doors, installing an alarm and a guard dog will reduce the chance of being burgled but it won't prevent it. In the same way, not getting drunk off your face in a nightclub and staggering out into a dark ally on your own will help reduce the chance of being raped. You can take all precautions and still be raped. There isn't anything a woman can do to prevent rape.

Looking both ways before crossing the road, reduces the chance of being hit by a car, but it doesn't prevent it

Sticking to the speed limit while you are driving, reduces the chance of being in an accident, but doesn't prevent it

Following a game rangers instructions on a safari, reduces the chances of you being crushed by an elephant or mauled by a lion, but it doesn't prevent it.

[Zazzy]

@ Bad Wolf-

Why would anyone shout at you? You're entirely right. Given that most people are raped by people they know rather than strangers, the home precautions only help protect you against stranger rapes. There is no way to 100% sure- and what's really odd is that sometimes men who are usually good guys commit sexual assaults- usually under the influence of drugs/alcohol. They can't believe they did it. The victim can't believe they did it. Everyone is shocked. Now they're labeled sex offenders forever.

How do you prevent THAT?

[Bad Wolf]

I guess you can't prevent it

[davidMC1982]

In a court of law, someone has to determine whether consent was either explicitly given or withdrawn or implicitly given or withdrawn. There is a huge grey area here. Remember, you're essentially asking a third-party to determine the thoughts, intentions and actions of two people. In this sense, rape is one of the few crimes where the victim is treated in the same way as the perpetrator. Invasive physical inspections, detailed and probing questioning of not just circumstances but character, having to defend oneself in court, etc etc.

If a man was drunk and thought consent was given and a woman was drunk and thought consent wasn't given, how do you determine if it was rape or not? If that's not a huge grey area I don't know what is. There are men that take advantage grey areas such as this and women that abuse it also. I would like to think that most genuine misunderstandings stop at what could be considered inappropriate touching, but it's not inconceivable that things could go further. In Zazzy's (?) example a few pages back, I would guess it felt much like rape, but it's difficult to say it was. It could be argued that if she didn't feel that consent could be withdrawn, then rape it was. The man probably wouldn't agree. If Zazzy decided to report it, there's a rape case full of grey areas and confusion. Much like many rape cases I guess.

Aside from a long term cultural shift that sees people valuing all others as worthy of life and as equals, all the solutions surely come down to preventative ones.

[The Valkyrie]

@ Bad Wolf-

Why would anyone shout at you? You're entirely right. Given that most people are raped by people they know rather than strangers, the home precautions only help protect you against stranger rapes. There is no way to 100% sure- and what's really odd is that sometimes men who are usually good guys commit sexual assaults- usually under the influence of drugs/alcohol. They can't believe they did it. The victim can't believe they did it. Everyone is shocked. Now they're labeled sex offenders forever.

How do you prevent THAT?

I read an article years ago, and it was from an account from a magazine in the mid to late 80s so I can't find it, unfortunately.

It was by a reporter who attended an open-air concert.

Some distance from him was a girl in her early 20s sitting on her boyfriend's shoulders so she could see the concert. A nearby guy kept encouraging her to take her top off, which she finally did when her boyfriend encouraged her.

After that the reporter said the mood of the crowd changed slowly until the girl was basically pulled from her boyfriend's shoulders, manhandled and then, eventually gangraped. The reporter said it was like a pack mentality came over the onlookers and guys just started to join in.

He stated, quite honestly, that he was overcome by the same pack mentality and may have joined in if he hadn't been so far away. And this was a young man with a wife and kids.

What this says about the mentality of people I'm not entirely sure. I just found it a fascinating, and scary, read.

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I'm gunna regret this cause i'm gunna get shouted at but
I think you can reduce your chance of getting raped in the same way you can reduce your chance of being burgled. Locking all your windows and doors, installing an alarm and a guard dog will reduce the chance of being burgled but it won't prevent it. In the same way, not getting drunk off your face in a nightclub and staggering out into a dark ally on your own will help reduce the chance of being raped. You can take all precautions and still be raped. There isn't anything a woman can do to prevent rape.

Looking both ways before crossing the road, reduces the chance of being hit by a car, but it doesn't prevent it

Sticking to the speed limit while you are driving, reduces the chance of being in an accident, but doesn't prevent it

Following a game rangers instructions on a safari, reduces the chances of you being crushed by an elephant or mauled by a lion, but it doesn't prevent it.

And, of course, there are the old women who are raped in their own homes by intruders.

[Lemonvariable72]

So because a million scenarios could happen you should not do in your power to try to prevent them? That's what I advocate,doing what is in your power to protect your self. Obviously there are a million scenarios that could happen where you would not be successful, that doesn't mean something like bear mace won't increase your chances of being successful at defending yourself.
Let me say it like this, why do you put a lock on your door someone could pick a lock?
BTW the sort of behavior that fall into the category you ask of is simple. You identify which behaviours increase your chances of becoming a victim and avoid them. Of the ones I listed earlier, you should avoid those anyway.

You're not understanding me. The things you have to do to "prevent rape" is fucking bullshit. It makes your life difficult and inconvenient and it gives you no significant chance of survival. And yes, women are told since they're little girls what to do to "prevent" harassment or rape, we've been told by everyone how to "be careful" as if it makes a difference well it really doesn't. Muslims girls have been told that the hijab will protect them, and the rest of us have been told that if we're careful enough that'll protect us. Well, the first time I was molested I was 8 and my parents were in the same room but weren't looking. I had no idea what the fuck was happening. If only I had a mace, right? I showed you the website in hopes that you can understand the variety of situations in which a man would rape a girl and then maybe you'll understand that it's quite ridiculous to think anyone could "prevent" any of that. (Because I didn't want to use my own experiences as example or you might think I'm "going nuts" because it's personal. For the record, I'm not going nuts) Or that they'd even think that they had to prevent anything. It's just that shit happens, and looking back everyone can find something that the victim "could've done" to increase her chances of survival but is it really practical to focus on this? Does it even make any sense?

You keep talking about chances. Chances of being a victim. How concrete are these chances? I'm not responsible for a rapist thinking: oh, that's an easy one, she's wearing heels, probably can't run. I'm not going to delude myself with the idea that if I do everything right my chances of being a victim is really low. That's not even true. Can you prove it? Can you show me a study that says if you're more confident, you're less likely to be a victim. Well what if I had a really bad day? It isn't fair to ask women to do these things with the idea that it could prevent rape when it really doesn't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I would love to have something that will give me a real fighting chance, but let's not drag out all these old misconceptions and pretend they're true. Oh and why do I put a lock on my door? I don't know, but it hasn't stopped any burglaries so far. The only difference with being robbed with locked doors and without is how guilty you feel after. A locked door isn't really helpful, what you need is an alarm system and a guard dog. What women can do about rape is like a locked door, but people somehow think that it's a full grade security system.

Well first off the going nut bit was not ment for you at all, rather just how some people are bout these issues. I also understand that girls are fed allot of bullshit about what prevents rape. I personally carry a weapon for self defence. What I was listing off before is really stuff that should people ( the stuff for men and girls) is stuff people should do any way for a lot of reasons besides avoiding rape. And ultimately your right you can never eliminate the risk, evil people exist and will do evil things. Even if you had a guard dog and full alarm someone could still cut the power and shoot the dog. Now let me ask you which point did I bring up that you think is wrong, or ineffectual? As for your personal incident, I hope the piece of shit paid for it. I am truly sorry to hear it.

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Oh here is a link to a similar topic on a another forum.
http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/pos...&highlight=

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https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readin...rollis.htm that's a good psychology paper. One more thing I thought I was clear on but want to clarify anyway. I not referring to attacks on children as there is nothing that can be done by a child to have any kind of prevention .

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This more in depth on the type.
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/crimpsych/CPSG-5.htm

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No one is telling young women that all men are out to rape them. Should we NOT tell young women to be careful because it might hurt young boys' feelings? WTF?

No one in the mainstream at least. Some fringe groups like Atheism+ are though.

No of course not zazzy. that's a oversimplification and rediculous.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Lemon, thanks for the sentiment. He never did, I didn't tell anyone cos I didn't understand what was going on and I thought my parents would be mad at me and I was scared.

Anyways, ok, stuff you said. I looked a few pages back so hopefully I got this right:
1. no shady places : this is fine, everyone instinctively does this anyway, boys or girls.
2. gun or mace: uhm, no. Because if you're not good at using a weapon and carry it around, it'll more likely be used on you. So yes you can get very good at it if you wish, but otherwise gun isn't that good a thing. Mace yea, but it's illegal in a lot of places to carry one. It's illegal where I live.
3. be confident: ok, this is just no. Because women are people too, some of us aren't confident, some of us have bad days, it's not a practical measure. Also I don't think this is the only thing rapist zoom in on. More on that later.
4. Don't flirt: well this is just no. People flirt all the time. That's how normal people get to know each other, show people they're interested, etc. etc.
5. Phone: good one but I know that some people think this is foolproof. It really isn't.

I think I got all of it? Well the thing is all these reduce chances of being raped by strangers outdoors. In your own home, almost the entire list doesn't work anymore. When it's someone you know, again, the entire list just goes out the window. As for rapists being predators, and we shouldn't "look the victim". I'm sure they go for a lot more than your demeanor. It's also your size, if you're carrying things, if you look like you can run (which you can't really if you have heels and pencil skirts or you're just plain unfit). There's also the issue of attraction. They fixate on you, for whatever reason who really knows? Who will know? There are so many factors, to alter yourself such that you're no longer their "type" is a futile effort because there are so many of them and their "type" ranges from little girls to old ladies. Yes, old ladies get raped too. There's also the thing about living like a victim, you aren't a victim but you live in fear of this thing to the extent that you forgo things you like, it's just not a life people want to live and it goes way beyond being responsible, it becomes a sacrifice.

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Perhaps I can articulate what I'm trying to express a little better. When talking about preventative measures or ways to keep safe, we really must understand the extent to which these measures ACTUALLY help. I feel like many people think that these things are women's first line of defence against rapists, muggers, or other types of assholes when in truth it's like a last desperate move. But somehow there's almost nothing else at our disposal. We should be more aggressive about this, and realize how helpless the situation is so that someone can come up with something better, and not fixate on the same old things that we all already know and have been doing for decades.