The question that makes fundies hostile

[Bad Writer]

That was actually a little heartfelt, Brian. Seriously. I smiled IRL.

[Ksa]

I'm a Fundie.
I would prefer to live in a society without slavery or same-sex 'marriage'.
...or greed or selfish, hedonistic sexual promiscuity, or abortion, or gambling, or drug dealers, or mental depression and self harm, or destruction of our beautiful environment, or weapons of mass destruction,

If I had to choose between going to Hell with the sinners and going to Heaven with the Saints, I would choose Hell. Saints, dry bones, are painfully boring people. They don't dance, because saints don't do ungodly things. They don't rejoice, they don't even watch a foot-ball match. They have blank faces, only stare at you when you do something wrong and are always criticizing. They don't have sex.

My God! What can they do? Just, sitting there nagging God with their prayers...they must have killed the poor fellow long ago!

But in Hell...you find the most beautiful people of the world. Actors, musicians, writers, Producers, video-game makers, show-men, bar-tenders...Hell must be a tremendous rejoicing from end to end!

[Bad Writer]

You can't prove that and you know it so you have to believe it and make excuses to believe it in the face of reality. That is called willful ignorance.

"Offers is best for mankind"? Like what? Child molesters? Childhood cancer? Children dying from famine? Hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, dark ages, slavery, sexism, homophobia, holocaust, 9/11?

Sounds like a deadbeat to me if he can stop those things but refuses to.

I have no need to prove it to you, the important thing is that I believe what God has demonstrated to me. He gave the knowledge of His existence to me because I searched for it.

If you are going to say on one hand that he gave you the knowledge of his existence, then you're going to have to prove (or give your best attempt at proving) that that's what happened. It's a claim without evidence, so we can discard it without evidence.

How do you know he gave you the knowledge of his existence? What does that entail, and how does one know when he/she has it too?

Willful ignorance belongs to those who deny the truth, not to those who accept it.

No. It's not willful ignorance if you can't provide evidence of what you deem to be truth. Willful ignorance is having at hand every fact that shows the earth to be round, but the person being shown this evidence decides to continue believing it is flat.

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Let me help you out of this contradiction real quick. You say "I'm not morally superior to any one..." and then you turn around and say "I try and live to the standards God has set for His children." Based on the second quote, is it any wonder why we say that you believe you are morally superior? You try to obey a law that you attribute to your god, who you believe to be the supreme moral authority in the universe. Unlike some people, we can do math, and we understand that 1+1=2. We put the pieces together and, viola! we have a Christian trying to follow his god's ultimate laws, which gives him a sense of moral superiority. If you truly believe that you are NOT, as you mentioned, morally superior to others, then the question being begged is "Does that mean you believe there's a more moral law out there somewhere?" (Yes, that is what that means.)

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You're just plain stupid, you attribute to me moral superiority after I just explained I'm not. You make up crap to accuse others of things thy are not to what, make yourself feel superior to others, so in reality you are the smug little brat. You like reading into others what you want to see and not what in reality the person is, this is nothing more than judgmental. So in conclusion you've self promoted yourself above those you disagree with.
Following God's law does not give me a sense of moral superiority, the scriptures actually teaches against this. Jesus parable on the log in one's eye.

I see you as a fellow human being in need of a serious reality check, but thanks for falsely identifying how I'm feeling. I told you the facts that led myself and others to believe that you might have a sense of superiority to others due to whence you believe your morals originate, but if we're wrong about that, then you need to tell us why that is instead of throwing a hissy fit and running to the corner when someone calls you out on your bullshit.

Try to see it from our perspective:

You see God as the supreme moral authority. You follow these morals that you attribute to them. You see others as following inferior morals. Now, how do you explain that you are not morally superior? A Jesus parable won't cut it, because the speck and the log in people's eyes is easily recognized as a quip towards those who project their issues onto another person who is suffering from the same ill, but not quite so badly as he who is making the accusation. ...of course you're allowed your interpretation, but that interpretation still falsely accuses me of being judgmental when I am in fact simply analyzing the case at hand. If you feel angry about the way I portrayed you, you're allowed to have your feelings, but I expect you to back up your rebuttal a little better.

...there are those who would use the Bible to bring harm to others, I do not read such in scriptures, you need to blame the guilty, not God.

I do blame the guilty: the men who wrote the Bible were sly sons of bitches, and the people who follow the words of the Bible to the extreme of hate crimes and such are also bad. I don't blame your god because I don't believe in it.

I do agree with God on those things that bring harm to man kind, the practice of homosexuality, premarital sex, drug use and ect.

Your god prohibits drug use? Also, how exactly does premarital sex and homosexuality harm mankind? Still, I'm glad to hear you don't perpetuate hate crimes against these people.

You seem to be like so many others and believe I could hate or that the scriptures teach hate of people, when in reality it's the hate of their actions. If homosexuals can't help the way they feel there's no reason to hate that person, if they act upon that, I disagree with the action because I believe it's harmful and the same for other actions. People are not to be hated and I've never suggested I do, but I have been told on this site by atheist that they hate me and why, because I make a stand and want budge toward the way others want me to think.

I actually don't hate you, even if others do. I'm sorry to hear this; if you don't hate others or don't act in a way that would bring harm to the people named above, then there's no reason to hate you. I only hate your beliefs.

So if you believe god makes everyone for a purpose, then why did he make many people homosexual or give them homosexual tendencies if they're going to be hated for acting upon their feelings and desires? That seems like a real dickish thing for your god to do, if that's the case. Not the kind of guy I would like to worship. I suppose this is why we find it hard to believe that you find the Bible to be good, or even that your god is good. So why would god make homosexuals if he's just going to destroy them in the end?

I do not believe because it feels good or feels right, doing something for those reasons would be wrong. I believe because I know God is real and that what He offers is best for mankind.

What he offers is for a small group of people. (That's if he's even real and offering anything in the first place.)

No it's not, the offer is to all, the NT is very clear about this. Do you call a group of several hundred million small?

The NT is contradictory about this. First Jesus refuses to teach the gentiles, but when he dies that's when his disciples decide to go against that teaching, claiming they got the order from Zombie Christ. Whatever, fine, it's a story book, so I'll go along with that. It doesn't change the fact that the OT seemed pretty certain about who was Yahweh's chosen people. On top of that, several hundred million may be a large number, but an argument based on the size of a population is hardly something to go by, especially when they don't all agree on what version of Christ to worship or which of his teachings to follow. In addition to that little factoid, Christianity may claim to be all-inclusive, but it certainly does a great job at excluding minorities by, for instance, making its followers believe that hating gays is what god wants (based on the fact that god hates when two men lie with each other, and even if they don't, they are condemned for just thinking about it). Based on the NT, it also still believes the house of Israel to be something special as it plays a role in the Rapture, so it seems that it doesn't care of that group of people convert or not. Should I even mention the vessels of wrath that are doomed to damnation no matter what happens in this life?

Also, if your religion was so all-inclusive, why does it turn so many off from it? Your Bible does a great job as a natural deterrent.

[Godscreated]

I have no need to prove it to you, the important thing is that I believe what God has demonstrated to me. He gave the knowledge of His existence to me because I searched for it.

If you are going to say on one hand that he gave you the knowledge of his existence, then you're going to have to prove (or give your best attempt at proving) that that's what happened. It's a claim without evidence, so we can discard it without evidence.

How do you know he gave you the knowledge of his existence? What does that entail, and how does one know when he/she has it too.

Disregard whatever you desire, you do it all the time and because of that I have no need to explain things to you. You tell me I have to bring evidence, then you turn around and ask questions, what's up with that? If you were to become a Christian and had the desire to know God then you would know what I'm speaking of, this is a knowledge that comes through sincerity of faith and belief. Only a true relationship with God will bring you to such knowledge.

Willful ignorance belongs to those who deny the truth, not to those who accept it.

No. It's not willful ignorance if you can't provide evidence of what you deem to be truth. Willful ignorance is having at hand every fact that shows the earth to be round, but the person being shown this evidence decides to continue believing it is flat.

Like I said, willful ignorance belongs to those who deny the truth.

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You're just plain stupid, you attribute to me moral superiority after I just explained I'm not. You make up crap to accuse others of things thy are not to what, make yourself feel superior to others, so in reality you are the smug little brat. You like reading into others what you want to see and not what in reality the person is, this is nothing more than judgmental. So in conclusion you've self promoted yourself above those you disagree with.
Following God's law does not give me a sense of moral superiority, the scriptures actually teaches against this. Jesus parable on the log in one's eye.

I see you as a fellow human being in need of a serious reality check, but thanks for falsely identifying how I'm feeling. I told you the facts that led myself and others to believe that you might have a sense of superiority to others due to whence you believe your morals originate, but if we're wrong about that, then you need to tell us why that is instead of throwing a hissy fit and running to the corner when someone calls you out on your bullshit.

You didn't call me out you blatantly told me what my life consists of, when I stated differently. You can't be satisfied with a persons answer you have to tell them what you think you see.

Try to see it from our perspective:

You see God as the supreme moral authority. You follow these morals that you attribute to them. You see others as following inferior morals. Now, how do you explain that you are not morally superior? A Jesus parable won't cut it, because the speck and the log in people's eyes is easily recognized as a quip towards those who project their issues onto another person who is suffering from the same ill, but not quite so badly as he who is making the accusation. ...of course you're allowed your interpretation, but that interpretation still falsely accuses me of being judgmental when I am in fact simply analyzing the case at hand. If you feel angry about the way I portrayed you, you're allowed to have your feelings, but I expect you to back up your rebuttal a little better.

You have the idea of the log and the speck wrong, it pertains to sin period. If it only pertained to one person judging another for the same sin in his life, then one who does not have that same sin in his life could judge another and that is not what Jesus taught. That's why Jesus said to leave the alter and make things right with those whom have wronged you or whom you've wronged.
Just because I see God's moral laws to be better than those of others does not mean I'm morally superior, it means God is morally superior to man. I'm just trying to follow those moral laws to help me to be a better person, and not better than anyone else. I have enough trouble with my own life to be looking at others and believing I'm better than they are, sure there are those that I do better than, the jails are full of them but, that does not set me above them in any way, I have plenty of faults in my life they just don't land me in jail.

...there are those who would use the Bible to bring harm to others, I do not read such in scriptures, you need to blame the guilty, not God.

I do blame the guilty: the men who wrote the Bible were sly sons of bitches, and the people who follow the words of the Bible to the extreme of hate crimes and such are also bad. I don't blame your god because I don't believe in it.

So when anyone has a different belief than you do they are no good, many follow the teachings of scriptures without ever being hateful.

I do agree with God on those things that bring harm to man kind, the practice of homosexuality, premarital sex, drug use and ect.

Your god prohibits drug use? Also, how exactly does premarital sex and homosexuality harm mankind? Still, I'm glad to hear you don't perpetuate hate crimes against these people.

Alcohol is a drug, and God says that to drink in excess is sinful, what He is saying, to alter your state of mind with anything is sinful.
If everyone obeyed God's law on no sex out side of marriage there would be no STDs. The practice of homosexuality goes against how God created mankind, so to go against the natural order of creation, to procreate, is not beneficial to mankind.

You seem to be like so many others and believe I could hate or that the scriptures teach hate of people, when in reality it's the hate of their actions. If homosexuals can't help the way they feel there's no reason to hate that person, if they act upon that, I disagree with the action because I believe it's harmful and the same for other actions. People are not to be hated and I've never suggested I do, but I have been told on this site by atheist that they hate me and why, because I make a stand and want budge toward the way others want me to think.

I actually don't hate you, even if others do. I'm sorry to hear this; if you don't hate others or don't act in a way that would bring harm to the people named above, then there's no reason to hate you. I only hate your beliefs.

Fair enough. I really can't find a reason to hate someone else, to be extremely mad yes but, to hate no. I hope that I never come to the point of hatred in my life, it seems such a waste of time and of one's life.

So if you believe god makes everyone for a purpose, then why did he make many people homosexual or give them homosexual tendencies if they're going to be hated for acting upon their feelings and desires? That seems like a real dickish thing for your god to do, if that's the case. Not the kind of guy I would like to worship. I suppose this is why we find it hard to believe that you find the Bible to be good, or even that your god is good. So why would god make homosexuals if he's just going to destroy them in the end?

You see things about God that are not true, God does not create homosexuals, the mentally ill, the physically deformed and ect., He does allow them to be born and it is for a purpose. What purpose He has is for situations that will help others, this is hard to explain and to understand, but I have seen wonderful things come from what some deem as tragedy. So God does not make anyone a certain way, however He does give them guidelines to live by. If you understood what God teaches through the scriptures you would understand how sin is involved in the horrors man suffers. Sorry if this doesn't make sense to you, I see it in my mind but have trouble putting it into words.

No it's not, the offer is to all, the NT is very clear about this. Do you call a group of several hundred million small?

The NT is contradictory about this. First Jesus refuses to teach the gentiles, but when he dies that's when his disciples decide to go against that teaching, claiming they got the order from Zombie Christ.

That's not right, Christ came first to the Jews then the gentiles, He never refused to teach the gentile, the parable of the good Samaritan should be proof of this. Actually some of Jesus disciples tried to make people adhere to Jewish law to be a Christian and this was totally wrong. Christ said He come to save the world, He never said he came only for the Jews.

Whatever, fine, it's a story book, so I'll go along with that. It doesn't change the fact that the OT seemed pretty certain about who was Yahweh's chosen people.

Yes God did chose to make a nation to bring His Christ through and He made that nation to show how mankind fails without Him and the need for a savior. Unfortunately they got much of what God was doing wrong, because as God said they were a hard headed people.

On top of that, several hundred million may be a large number, but an argument based on the size of a population is hardly something to go by, especially when they don't all agree on what version of Christ to worship or which of his teachings to follow. In addition to that little factoid, Christianity may claim to be all-inclusive, but it certainly does a great job at excluding minorities by, for instance, making its followers believe that hating gays is what god wants (based on the fact that god hates when two men lie with each other, and even if they don't, they are condemned for just thinking about it).

Most all denominations believe that faith in Christ and what He did for mankind will bring salvation by the grace of God, and these are the true Christian denominations because the Bible is explicit about this. The denominations then go in many different directions, yet many are very much alike, with few differences. Christians who exclude minorities are guilty of sin according to God, Christians that hate need to examine their own standing with God. Jesus did say that if a person lust after another even in thought was guilty of sin, but do not forget He died for those very people because He loves us.

Based on the NT, it also still believes the house of Israel to be something special as it plays a role in the Rapture, so it seems that it doesn't care of that group of people convert or not. Should I even mention the vessels of wrath that are doomed to damnation no matter what happens in this life?

I do not believe in a rapture, it goes completely against the teachings of scripture, a rapture would mean Christ would have to return twice, scriptures make it clear He will return once and no more. If one does not come to Christ through faith they will not be in heaven, there is an exclusion for those who have not heard of Him, God has set a standard for those people that they will be judged by.

Also, if your religion was so all-inclusive, why does it turn so many off from it? Your Bible does a great job as a natural deterrent.

Man's own mind does that through selfishness, I know I was there at a point in my life, until one is willing to submit to what God has provided one will see the scriptures as something not for them. God is so inclusive that He says He desires that not one would perish in the coming judgement. I don't know who taught you about the scriptures and I do not remember if you once went to church. Learning what God was and is doing in and through the scriptures takes a great deal of studying and a great desire to learn, they make complete sense when you see how much God hates sin and what it's done to His creation especially man.

GC

[Jacob(smooth)]

These posts are getting a bit long so I'll keep mine short.

GC, you believe in God and in the bible because he revealed himself to you. Like me you had what you consider a first hand experience of the divine.

How then can we expect these atheists to accept God and or the bible based on... Well, based on us telling them ?

[feeling]

What I wonder is that why doesn't god reveal himself to all of us. He knows what would convince us of his existence even if we don't then why doesn't he? He chooses to hide from us apparently.

[Godlesspanther]

What I wonder is that why doesn't god reveal himself to all of us. He knows what would convince us of his existence even if we don't then why doesn't he? He chooses to hide from us apparently.

God does not reveal itself to everyone. We can clearly see that god speaks nary a word to anyone except narrow-minded, self-righteous, bigoted, ignorant, megalomaniacal, petty assholes. The reason for this is exactly the same reason that god does not heal amputees.

[Bad Writer]

GC, you believe in God and in the bible because he revealed himself to you. Like me you had what you consider a first hand experience of the divine.

How then can we expect these atheists to accept God and or the bible based on... Well, based on us telling them ?

It's his mission to shout as loud as he can for as long as his lungs will hold out. When the noise dies down and he sees that he's the only one still saying anything, he will falsely assume that he has won.

[Godscreated]

These posts are getting a bit long so I'll keep mine short.

GC, you believe in God and in the bible because he revealed himself to you. Like me you had what you consider a first hand experience of the divine.

How then can we expect these atheists to accept God and or the bible based on... Well, based on us telling them ?

It's what God intended, for us to witness to them, think you have the proof they want, I know I don't. It's not my place to prove anything to them only witness. The proving belongs to God that is His job explicitly, or didn't you experience God in this way?

GC

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GC, you believe in God and in the bible because he revealed himself to you. Like me you had what you consider a first hand experience of the divine.

How then can we expect these atheists to accept God and or the bible based on... Well, based on us telling them ?

It's his mission to shout as loud as he can for as long as his lungs will hold out. When the noise dies down and he sees that he's the only one still saying anything, he will falsely assume that he has won.

I'm already a winner with God and what He has and will do for me, those outside of His will are the losers, their grand prize is total darkness of life, complete hopeless.

GC

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What I wonder is that why doesn't god reveal himself to all of us. He knows what would convince us of his existence even if we don't then why doesn't he? He chooses to hide from us apparently.

God does not reveal itself to everyone. We can clearly see that god speaks nary a word to anyone except narrow-minded, self-righteous, bigoted, ignorant, megalomaniacal, petty assholes. The reason for this is exactly the same reason that god does not heal amputees.

Why is God suppose to heal amputees?

GC

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What I wonder is that why doesn't god reveal himself to all of us. He knows what would convince us of his existence even if we don't then why doesn't he? He chooses to hide from us apparently.

God has never been hidden, have you searched for Him, looks like you would if you wanted to know. You do not care to know if God's real because that would blow your little party train apart.

GC

[Brian37]

God has never been hidden, have you searched for Him, looks like you would if you wanted to know. You do not care to know if God's real because that would blow your little party train apart.

We know where he is, he resides in your brain as a fantasy. You do not care to know that God is not real because that would blow your little party train apart.

We know where he is, he resides in your brain as a fantasy. You do not care to know that Allah is not real because that would blow your little party train apart.

We know where he is, he resides in your brain as a fantasy. You do not care to know that Yahweh is not real because that would blow your little party train apart.

We know where he s, he resides in your brain as a fantasy. You do not care to know that Vishnu is not real because that would blow your little party train apart.