Holocost denial for dummies. Was: [split] Do you think jesus christ existed

[Mystical]

Omg this thread actually got good

[theyear12013]

Free speech is bullshit?

Are you making legal threats against this forum?

Pooper -- should Marx be banned? Do you want to infringe upon his free speech rights?

No, I'm merely pointing out that in some countries it is illegal to serve as a platform for holocaust denial.

Well, its great to see your concern. In some countries it is illegal to shut down a forum for speech that the government finds distasteful. As I'm guessing this forum is likely hosted in Common Law countries there should be no issues.

Pooper, wherever you are .... do you want Marxraptor banned for his views? Do you respect his right to free speech and argue with you about your silly non-argument?

[là bạn điên]

SDon;t ban deniers. Give them free speech so we can laugh at the idiots.

[LastPoet]

I don't agree with laws prohibiting holocaust denial, it violates the free speech ideal that I cherish. As to holocaust denial, its an infantile mockery to all mankind, the biased propagation of lies, but they have the right to say it, no matter how stupid they are.

If we are to have thought or speech crimes, then we are no better than those that did made the holocaust.

[Zen Badger]

So thousands of nazi party documents attesting to what was happening in the camps. Thousands of testimonials from both perpatrators and victims.

The physical remains of the camps.

But that's insufficient evidence.

Riiiiight.

[Belac Enrobso]

Bitch slapping people for utter, proven stupidity should be legal then.

[A Theist]

Considering the extremely distasteful nature of Shoah denial, & the fact that it is illegal in many nations, I think the staff ought to ban paintpooper.

He will be sooner or later. These nazi knuckle heads who wander in here and troll around a bit always do.

[MitchBenn]

Don't ban the anti-semite. Let him talk. The more he talks the wronger he gets.

[Aractus]

There is only witness testimony of course, but hell, the holocaust is based on witness testimony and people believe that.

Just like the retards in the original thread, you wouldn't know evidence if it slapped u in the face. The only evidence for the Holocaust is "(post WWII) witness testimony"? Outright lie.

Since you brought it up, yes there is testimony from Nazi officials and from surviving inmates from concentration camps. Ie you have testimony from both sides of the ordeal. And there is so much of it that based on testimony alone you can prove the Holocaust well beyond any doubt. And yet you dismiss this? You look at the total sum of evidence from witnesses and say it's unreliable? OF COURSE SOME OF IT'S UNRELIABLE! That's how witness testimony works, but we have so much of it that we can piece together a very clear picture. And some of it is very good testimony - like court testimony.

You do have contemporary records written during the war. Official records from concentration camps, etc, and records written by privately.

• Letter from Dr. August Becker, SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff, 16 May 1942 (Paragraph 4):
  
  The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed.
  
• Letter from Willy Just to SS-Obersturmbannführer Walter Rauff, 5 June 1942:
  
  Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using three vans without any faults developing in the vehicles. The well-known explosion in Kulmhof (Chelmno) must be treated as a special case. It was caused by faulty practice. Special instructions have been given to the relevant offices in order to avoid such accidents. The instructions were such as to ensure a considerable increase in the degree of security.
  
  Further operational experience hitherto indicates that the following technical alterations are appropriate....
  
  2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter. With the large Saurer special vans this is not possible because although they do not become overloaded their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction in the load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing the size of the van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred to cannot be overcome by reducing the size of the load. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is completely full requires a much sorter period of operation since there are no free spaces....
  
  3) The connecting hoses between the exhaust and the van frequently rust through because they are corroded inside by the liquids which fall on them. To prevent this the connecting piece must be moved so that the gas is fed from the top downwards. This will prevent liquids flowing in....
  
  6) The lighting must be better protected against damage than hitherto....It has been suggested that lighting should be dispensed with since they are allegedly never used. However, experience shows that when the rear door is closed and therefore when it becomes dark, the cargo presses hard towards the door....It makes it difficult to latch the door. Furthermore, it has been observed that the noise always begins when the doors are shut presumably because of fear brought on by the darkness.
  

Then there's the Goebbels Diaries which prove that Hitler did intend to exterminate the Jews:

• February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
  
  March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Diary of Hans Frank, then Governor General of Occupied Poland. (December 16, 1941):

• "As far as the Jews are concerned, I want to tell you quite frankly that they must be done away with in one way or. another. The Führer said once: 'Should united Jewry again succeed in provoking a world-war, the blood of not only the nations which have been forced into the war by them, will be shed, but the Jew will have found his end in Europe'. I know that many of the measures carried out against the Jews in the Reich at present are being criticized. It is being tried intentionally, as is obvious from the reports on the morale, to talk about cruelty, harshness, etc. Before I continue, I want to beg you to agree with me on the following formula: We will principally have pity on the German people only, and nobody else in the whole world. The others, too, had no pity on us. As an old National-Socialist, I must say: This war would only be a partial success if the whole lot of Jewry would survive it, while we would have shed our best blood in order to save Europe. My attitude towards the Jews will, therefore, be based only on the expectation that they must disappear. They must be done away with. I have entered negotiations to have them deported to the East. A great discussion concerning that question will take place in Berlin in January, to which I am going to delegate the State Secretary Dr. Buehler. That discussion is to take place in the Reich Security Main Office with SS-Lt. General Heydrich. A great Jewish migration will begin, in any case.
  
  "But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland', in villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother ? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reich kommissariat'. So liquidate them yourself.
  
  "Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain there the structure of the Reich as a whole. This will, naturally, be achieved by other methods than those pointed out by Bureau Chief Dr. Hummel. Nor can the judges of the Special Courts be made responsible for it, because of the limitations of the framework of the legal procedure. Such outdated views cannot be applied to such gigantic and unique events. We must find at any rate a way which leads to the goal, and my thoughts are working in that direction.
  
  "The Jews represent for us-also extraordinarily malignant gluttons. We have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government, perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation, and this in connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions from the Reich. The General Government must become free of Jews, the same as the Reich. Where and how this is to be achieved is a matter for the offices which we must appoint and create here. Their activities will be brought to your attention in due course."
  

And there's a whole fucking stack more contemporary records just like these. Not just written, there's video and audio as well. Like this:

Heinrich Himmler on October 4, 1943.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yi9hT8ES2g

And there is physical evidence - gas chambers were found, mass graves were exhumed, the camp sites were studied.

Don't pretend there's no fucking evidence you liar.

[A Theist]

---

There is only witness testimony of course, but hell, the holocaust is based on witness testimony and people believe that.

Just like the retards in the original thread, you wouldn't know evidence if it slapped u in the face. The only evidence for the Holocaust is "(post WWII) witness testimony"? Outright lie.

Since you brought it up, yes there is testimony from Nazi officials and from surviving inmates from concentration camps. Ie you have testimony from both sides of the ordeal. And there is so much of it that based on testimony alone you can prove the Holocaust well beyond any doubt. And yet you dismiss this? You look at the total sum of evidence from witnesses and say it's unreliable? OF COURSE SOME OF IT'S UNRELIABLE! That's how witness testimony works, but we have so much of it that we can piece together a very clear picture. And some of it is very good testimony - like court testimony.

You do have contemporary records written during the war. Official records from concentration camps, etc, and records written by privately.

• Letter from Dr. August Becker, SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff, 16 May 1942 (Paragraph 4):
  
  The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed.
  
• Letter from Willy Just to SS-Obersturmbannführer Walter Rauff, 5 June 1942:
  
  Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using three vans without any faults developing in the vehicles. The well-known explosion in Kulmhof (Chelmno) must be treated as a special case. It was caused by faulty practice. Special instructions have been given to the relevant offices in order to avoid such accidents. The instructions were such as to ensure a considerable increase in the degree of security.
  
  Further operational experience hitherto indicates that the following technical alterations are appropriate....
  
  2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter. With the large Saurer special vans this is not possible because although they do not become overloaded their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction in the load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing the size of the van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred to cannot be overcome by reducing the size of the load. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is completely full requires a much sorter period of operation since there are no free spaces....
  
  3) The connecting hoses between the exhaust and the van frequently rust through because they are corroded inside by the liquids which fall on them. To prevent this the connecting piece must be moved so that the gas is fed from the top downwards. This will prevent liquids flowing in....
  
  6) The lighting must be better protected against damage than hitherto....It has been suggested that lighting should be dispensed with since they are allegedly never used. However, experience shows that when the rear door is closed and therefore when it becomes dark, the cargo presses hard towards the door....It makes it difficult to latch the door. Furthermore, it has been observed that the noise always begins when the doors are shut presumably because of fear brought on by the darkness.
  

Then there's the Goebbels Diaries which prove that Hitler did intend to exterminate the Jews:

• February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
  
  March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Diary of Hans Frank, then Governor General of Occupied Poland. (December 16, 1941):

• "As far as the Jews are concerned, I want to tell you quite frankly that they must be done away with in one way or. another. The Führer said once: 'Should united Jewry again succeed in provoking a world-war, the blood of not only the nations which have been forced into the war by them, will be shed, but the Jew will have found his end in Europe'. I know that many of the measures carried out against the Jews in the Reich at present are being criticized. It is being tried intentionally, as is obvious from the reports on the morale, to talk about cruelty, harshness, etc. Before I continue, I want to beg you to agree with me on the following formula: We will principally have pity on the German people only, and nobody else in the whole world. The others, too, had no pity on us. As an old National-Socialist, I must say: This war would only be a partial success if the whole lot of Jewry would survive it, while we would have shed our best blood in order to save Europe. My attitude towards the Jews will, therefore, be based only on the expectation that they must disappear. They must be done away with. I have entered negotiations to have them deported to the East. A great discussion concerning that question will take place in Berlin in January, to which I am going to delegate the State Secretary Dr. Buehler. That discussion is to take place in the Reich Security Main Office with SS-Lt. General Heydrich. A great Jewish migration will begin, in any case.
  
  "But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland', in villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother ? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reich kommissariat'. So liquidate them yourself.
  
  "Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain there the structure of the Reich as a whole. This will, naturally, be achieved by other methods than those pointed out by Bureau Chief Dr. Hummel. Nor can the judges of the Special Courts be made responsible for it, because of the limitations of the framework of the legal procedure. Such outdated views cannot be applied to such gigantic and unique events. We must find at any rate a way which leads to the goal, and my thoughts are working in that direction.
  
  "The Jews represent for us-also extraordinarily malignant gluttons. We have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government, perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation, and this in connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions from the Reich. The General Government must become free of Jews, the same as the Reich. Where and how this is to be achieved is a matter for the offices which we must appoint and create here. Their activities will be brought to your attention in due course."
  

And there's a whole fucking stack more contemporary records just like these. Not just written, there's video and audio as well. Like this:

Heinrich Himmler on October 4, 1943.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yi9hT8ES2g

And there is physical evidence - gas chambers were found, mass graves were exhumed, the camp sites were studied.

Don't pretend there's no fucking evidence you liar.

---

Even with the best and verifiable evidence he'll continue to deny it and say it was all a forgery or a hoax. There's no getting through to shit for brains people like him.