An unorthodox belief in God.

[SteelCurtain]

Once again, I'll ask you to stop re-defining terms to suit your ends. Archaeological evidence that people or places existed lend exactly zero gravity to the claim of existence or nonexistence for your deity.

I use terms as I understand them. I don't redefine anything. And archaeological evidence of people and places in the bible lend credence to the god of the bible. So we definitely disagree there.

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/bible_...ericho.htm

This analogy has been used before, but I don't remember you addressing it, so I'll pose it to you again. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey contain references to historical events, people, and places. Does this lend any validity to the god claims contained within those texts? Does the fact that Homer sometimes accurately portrayed historical events in his epics mean anything about the existence or nonexistence of Zeus, Hera, Demeter, or Poseidon?

If not, then why is the Bible held to a different standard?

[bennyboy]

The biblical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found as well. Interesting stunning find!

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/200...orrah.aspx

I don't see how statements of facts in the Bible, for example about the existence of cities or the occurrence of events like a big flood, belongs in a thread about belief in God. Are you claiming that including some actual facts adds credibility to those things which are not facts?

How about this: the sun is yellow, and I'm from Canada, therefore I'm the Messiah. Logical, right? I told the truth about the first two things, so the last one must be true as well.

[mickiel]

A side note, not related to any particular post in this thread, but rather an amalgam thought (if there is such a thing) on the back-and-forth between our new theist and the non-believers:

It's curious to me how little respect our theists have. We do have the rare theists who come here and manage to respect people for the most part. Anyone remember Tackattack? He had the same ole ridiculous belief structure but he usually understood how to respect others while disagreeing with them. He didn't go around spouting off unsubstantiated claims about things he knew nothing about. He didn't go around making ridiculous strawman arguments about evolution or continuously berating people for using expletives. Rayaan is another example of a great theist here who doesn't go around annoying the holy fuck out of people.

What is it about believing in god that makes most believers such holy fucking assholes? They get all their information from their preacher or their youth pastor pal and don't even bother checking on their information before blathering it out like a gullible halfwit. AND they always precede that with how "unique" their particular views on god are and how "unchristian" they feel their position is ... all while they tout the Bible and praise the Genesis creation.

It's just so god damn predictably annoying.

You say you're not a christian, yet you smell like a christian, you talk like a christian, you act like a christian, you believe the same book as a christian, you're uneducated like a christian and you're an an arrogant fucking asshole ... like a christian. Guess what, I see no difference. Accept it or not - I don't care, you're a christian.

Well thank you. May I make an observation I am curious about myself , about the atheist here that I view as a commonality; most of them curse like its a tradition to do here. Their words slice you up like an expert butcher. Its as if cursing is a culture here , or a type of peer pressure; if you don't do it, why then you're not an atheist. Reminds me of accepted arrogance, because its hard to curse without being arrogant about it.

I also notice that a few have the manners to welcome guest, which is rewarding when you are a newcomer.

I also notice that some atheist like to threaten you, if they cannot get their way. Or change your way.

However, unlike you, I am not annoyed. Because I view these as really being human tendency, not atheist tendency.

---

I use terms as I understand them. I don't redefine anything. And archaeological evidence of people and places in the bible lend credence to the god of the bible. So we definitely disagree there.

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/bible_...ericho.htm

This analogy has been used before, but I don't remember you addressing it, so I'll pose it to you again. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey contain references to historical events, people, and places. Does this lend any validity to the god claims contained within those texts? Does the fact that Homer sometimes accurately portrayed historical events in his epics mean anything about the existence or nonexistence of Zeus, Hera, Demeter, or Poseidon?

If not, then why is the Bible held to a different standard?

You're comparison is illusion , an attempt to deflect or disarm what I am doing. I am giving real biblical characters and events in our history, and the professional archaeology that confirms it. Greek gods and their mythical places are illusions, no professional has uncovered evidence of them. In judges 7:1 Gideon had a cave, we have that cave now; its no myth and no game; Its simply a real standard;

http://www.gemsinisrael.com/e_article000002707.htm

---

The biblical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found as well. Interesting stunning find!

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/200...orrah.aspx

I don't see how statements of facts in the Bible, for example about the existence of cities or the occurrence of events like a big flood, belongs in a thread about belief in God. Are you claiming that including some actual facts adds credibility to those things which are not facts?

How about this: the sun is yellow, and I'm from Canada, therefore I'm the Messiah. Logical, right? I told the truth about the first two things, so the last one must be true as well.

The significance of these professional historical factual finds are that they give us more information about the people of those times, the places and buildings of the times , the laws of those times and the beliefs of those times.

And whether you like it or not, the gods worshipped during those times.

Such as the Mari tablets:

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1...458-e-0460

[Creed of Heresy]

I think atheist do put a lot of faith in evolution, but they will deny its faith.

Faith is the evidence when there is no evidence.

You have got to be fucking kidding. You are, right?

There are literally terabytes of information gleaned from genome mapping, methods of time-stamping, archeological digs, observation of short-term evolutionary response mechanisms, fossils [not quite included in terms of archeological digs; I mean this more specifically in terms of our own genetic ancestry], geological studies [Burgess Shale, anyone?], observations of cellular evolution, observations of the proof of abiogenesis...

That's not faith. That's called "accepting the facts of reality." That's called "faith has been buried under the Mt. Everest of evidence-mountains and it doesn't take 20/20 vision to see it."

You should try it! Might make the world seem a bit more interesting! Especially when you start realizing shit that will blow your mind...like how absolutely phenomenal the odds are that you, I, the world, the galaxy, everything in the universe would exist. You realize that the odds of you being alive, being who you are, where you are, what you are are? I don't think there's a name for the number for the odds. And yet, it's no grand master plan; had a single variable so much as twitched the other way, you might be someone else...or you might be not at all.

It's pure, random, chaotic chance. And when you actually genuinely see all the variables that went into, well, everything, and you then factor in all the scientific studies, theories, tests, observations, and conclusions that show what's happened, and where it began, and now are beginning to understand how and why it began...suddenly the pitiful ramblings of a bunch of unimaginative bronze-age cultists seems dull, dreary, uninspiring, and completely irrelevant.

Granted, this whole understanding also comes with the realization that none of the religions of man even touch the truth of the complexity of the universe and are insufficient to explain a god or any god, and that every single god of history has been buried under reality, and that the last one you believed in has been rendered false, too. And with that comes the realization that failing the simplest tests of evidence and observation has been a shared trait of all religions and all spiritual beliefs throughout human history. And with that tends to come the realization that after being so absolutely wrong so many times, you just have to accept that the hypothesis is simply invalid; there is no god. And death is pretty much the termination of your consciousness.

Does that instill a sense of terror and despair? Yup. It's traumatic. I can understand why there are so many who cannot face it; death is a terrifying thing, and the mere possibility that it really is the end is too terrifying for many to even begin to consider. Much easier to convince oneself "I'll go on perceiving forever!" No surprise there; perceiving and experiencing things is rather enjoyable. But if you believe it's never going to end, you take it for granted and you waste it.

But if you face it, realize it, come to terms with it, and make peace with it (and chances are rather high that you will as long as you take the first step), it stops being so scary. It does make you value your choices much more, and it does make you much more appreciative of the value of human life, though. It makes life a lot more vibrant and interesting when you realize you'd better start scrambling to experience what the world has to offer, because you've got a clock that's slowly ticking down to 0 and it's not going to stop ticking...unless science finds a way to make us never die of old age...which, well, once upon a time we once thought impossible but now there's studies underway that show it might not be quite as remote a possibility as we once thought. How ironic that it wouldn't be religion, but rather science that granted us immortality, huh?

It makes you value the lives of others more. It makes you realize that things function a lot better for everyone when we try to do good by others for no other reason than to share the wealth of experience. It makes you realize how important it is and how simply good it is to ensure the conception, vitalization, and prosperity of our children, the ones who come next, so that they might do the same, and so on, so that experience and perception can continue to be shared.

I have nothing to gain by what likely seems to be me trying to relieve you of your faith. You might think "Satan's temptations!" or something, depending on your level of fundamentalism, but you're just gonna take my words on faith here; I never felt any satanic or evil presence when I abandoned the indoctrinating influences of religion. I have never since had any urge to bring violent aggression against another human being. Looking back, actually, I'm a much more moral person than I was when I was following the bible's morality. I'm a lot more accepting, a lot less bigoted, a lot more understanding of people and events and experiences.

I am good without God. If ever I really must give a reason, it's quite simple, really; it's just a biological drive. We human beings are a very social, communal species. What's good for the group is good for the individual. Simple as that, really.

So, yes, there is a literally undeniable amount of evidence for evolution. And no, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for anything claimed in any of the religious texts throughout history.

Close one's eyes shut (ignorance) or open one's arms wide (gullibility), either way, one is a fool. But open one's eyes wide (understanding) and keep one's arms folded (skepticism), either way, one is wise.

[mickiel]

I think atheist do put a lot of faith in evolution, but they will deny its faith.

Faith is the evidence when there is no evidence.

You have got to be fucking kidding. You are, right?

There are literally terabytes of information gleaned from genome mapping, methods of time-stamping, archeological digs, observation of short-term evolutionary response mechanisms, fossils [not quite included in terms of archeological digs; I mean this more specifically in terms of our own genetic ancestry], geological studies [Burgess Shale, anyone?], observations of cellular evolution, observations of the proof of abiogenesis...

That's not faith. That's called "accepting the facts of reality." That's called "faith has been buried under the Mt. Everest of evidence-mountains and it doesn't take 20/20 vision to see it."

You should try it! Might make the world seem a bit more interesting! Especially when you start realizing shit that will blow your mind...like how absolutely phenomenal the odds are that you, I, the world, the galaxy, everything in the universe would exist. You realize that the odds of you being alive, being who you are, where you are, what you are are? I don't think there's a name for the number for the odds. And yet, it's no grand master plan; had a single variable so much as twitched the other way, you might be someone else...or you might be not at all.

It's pure, random, chaotic chance. And when you actually genuinely see all the variables that went into, well, everything, and you then factor in all the scientific studies, theories, tests, observations, and conclusions that show what's happened, and where it began, and now are beginning to understand how and why it began...suddenly the pitiful ramblings of a bunch of unimaginative bronze-age cultists seems dull, dreary, uninspiring, and completely irrelevant.

Granted, this whole understanding also comes with the realization that none of the religions of man even touch the truth of the complexity of the universe and are insufficient to explain a god or any god, and that every single god of history has been buried under reality, and that the last one you believed in has been rendered false, too. And with that comes the realization that failing the simplest tests of evidence and observation has been a shared trait of all religions and all spiritual beliefs throughout human history. And with that tends to come the realization that after being so absolutely wrong so many times, you just have to accept that the hypothesis is simply invalid; there is no god. And death is pretty much the termination of your consciousness.

Does that instill a sense of terror and despair? Yup. It's traumatic. I can understand why there are so many who cannot face it; death is a terrifying thing, and the mere possibility that it really is the end is too terrifying for many to even begin to consider. Much easier to convince oneself "I'll go on perceiving forever!" No surprise there; perceiving and experiencing things is rather enjoyable. But if you believe it's never going to end, you take it for granted and you waste it.

But if you face it, realize it, come to terms with it, and make peace with it (and chances are rather high that you will as long as you take the first step), it stops being so scary. It does make you value your choices much more, and it does make you much more appreciative of the value of human life, though. It makes life a lot more vibrant and interesting when you realize you'd better start scrambling to experience what the world has to offer, because you've got a clock that's slowly ticking down to 0 and it's not going to stop ticking...unless science finds a way to make us never die of old age...which, well, once upon a time we once thought impossible but now there's studies underway that show it might not be quite as remote a possibility as we once thought. How ironic that it wouldn't be religion, but rather science that granted us immortality, huh?

It makes you value the lives of others more. It makes you realize that things function a lot better for everyone when we try to do good by others for no other reason than to share the wealth of experience. It makes you realize how important it is and how simply good it is to ensure the conception, vitalization, and prosperity of our children, the ones who come next, so that they might do the same, and so on, so that experience and perception can continue to be shared.

I have nothing to gain by what likely seems to be me trying to relieve you of your faith. You might think "Satan's temptations!" or something, depending on your level of fundamentalism, but you're just gonna take my words on faith here; I never felt any satanic or evil presence when I abandoned the indoctrinating influences of religion. I have never since had any urge to bring violent aggression against another human being. Looking back, actually, I'm a much more moral person than I was when I was following the bible's morality. I'm a lot more accepting, a lot less bigoted, a lot more understanding of people and events and experiences.

I am good without God. If ever I really must give a reason, it's quite simple, really; it's just a biological drive. We human beings are a very social, communal species. What's good for the group is good for the individual. Simple as that, really.

So, yes, there is a literally undeniable amount of evidence for evolution. And no, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for anything claimed in any of the religious texts throughout history.

Close one's eyes shut (ignorance) or open one's arms wide (gullibility), either way, one is a fool. But open one's eyes wide (understanding) and keep one's arms folded (skepticism), either way, one is wise.

You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

[Rampant.A.I.]

You have got to be fucking kidding. You are, right?

There are literally terabytes of information gleaned from genome mapping, methods of time-stamping, archeological digs, observation of short-term evolutionary response mechanisms, fossils [not quite included in terms of archeological digs; I mean this more specifically in terms of our own genetic ancestry], geological studies [Burgess Shale, anyone?], observations of cellular evolution, observations of the proof of abiogenesis...

That's not faith. That's called "accepting the facts of reality." That's called "faith has been buried under the Mt. Everest of evidence-mountains and it doesn't take 20/20 vision to see it."

You should try it! Might make the world seem a bit more interesting! Especially when you start realizing shit that will blow your mind...like how absolutely phenomenal the odds are that you, I, the world, the galaxy, everything in the universe would exist. You realize that the odds of you being alive, being who you are, where you are, what you are are? I don't think there's a name for the number for the odds. And yet, it's no grand master plan; had a single variable so much as twitched the other way, you might be someone else...or you might be not at all.

It's pure, random, chaotic chance. And when you actually genuinely see all the variables that went into, well, everything, and you then factor in all the scientific studies, theories, tests, observations, and conclusions that show what's happened, and where it began, and now are beginning to understand how and why it began...suddenly the pitiful ramblings of a bunch of unimaginative bronze-age cultists seems dull, dreary, uninspiring, and completely irrelevant.

Granted, this whole understanding also comes with the realization that none of the religions of man even touch the truth of the complexity of the universe and are insufficient to explain a god or any god, and that every single god of history has been buried under reality, and that the last one you believed in has been rendered false, too. And with that comes the realization that failing the simplest tests of evidence and observation has been a shared trait of all religions and all spiritual beliefs throughout human history. And with that tends to come the realization that after being so absolutely wrong so many times, you just have to accept that the hypothesis is simply invalid; there is no god. And death is pretty much the termination of your consciousness.

Does that instill a sense of terror and despair? Yup. It's traumatic. I can understand why there are so many who cannot face it; death is a terrifying thing, and the mere possibility that it really is the end is too terrifying for many to even begin to consider. Much easier to convince oneself "I'll go on perceiving forever!" No surprise there; perceiving and experiencing things is rather enjoyable. But if you believe it's never going to end, you take it for granted and you waste it.

But if you face it, realize it, come to terms with it, and make peace with it (and chances are rather high that you will as long as you take the first step), it stops being so scary. It does make you value your choices much more, and it does make you much more appreciative of the value of human life, though. It makes life a lot more vibrant and interesting when you realize you'd better start scrambling to experience what the world has to offer, because you've got a clock that's slowly ticking down to 0 and it's not going to stop ticking...unless science finds a way to make us never die of old age...which, well, once upon a time we once thought impossible but now there's studies underway that show it might not be quite as remote a possibility as we once thought. How ironic that it wouldn't be religion, but rather science that granted us immortality, huh?

It makes you value the lives of others more. It makes you realize that things function a lot better for everyone when we try to do good by others for no other reason than to share the wealth of experience. It makes you realize how important it is and how simply good it is to ensure the conception, vitalization, and prosperity of our children, the ones who come next, so that they might do the same, and so on, so that experience and perception can continue to be shared.

I have nothing to gain by what likely seems to be me trying to relieve you of your faith. You might think "Satan's temptations!" or something, depending on your level of fundamentalism, but you're just gonna take my words on faith here; I never felt any satanic or evil presence when I abandoned the indoctrinating influences of religion. I have never since had any urge to bring violent aggression against another human being. Looking back, actually, I'm a much more moral person than I was when I was following the bible's morality. I'm a lot more accepting, a lot less bigoted, a lot more understanding of people and events and experiences.

I am good without God. If ever I really must give a reason, it's quite simple, really; it's just a biological drive. We human beings are a very social, communal species. What's good for the group is good for the individual. Simple as that, really.

So, yes, there is a literally undeniable amount of evidence for evolution. And no, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for anything claimed in any of the religious texts throughout history.

Close one's eyes shut (ignorance) or open one's arms wide (gullibility), either way, one is a fool. But open one's eyes wide (understanding) and keep one's arms folded (skepticism), either way, one is wise.

You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

More appeal to complexly fallacies.



http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...rom_design

[Creed of Heresy]

You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

You're seeing things that aren't there, making a wild jump to conclusions. "This is a huge complex thing; ergo god!" How do ya figure? I mean, your religion basically states the world has existed for a grand total of, what, seven millenia? Yet we have evidence up the wazoo that shows it's billions of years old.

Anyone can believe this was intended and planned and designed; there's a difference between seeing, and believing.

What is "true" and what is "real" are two different things. Very different, in fact.

Let's see if you understand what I mean...

---

By the way, this vast and complex universe, yet god neglected to tell his "chosen people" about the rest of it? As it was believed, he lived among the clouds...not the stars. Or beyond the stars, for that matter. And if this was all intended, and designed, and planned, then why does it seem like everything's been designed so poorly? The human body alone is a terrific example of that; it breaks down and falls apart and suffers serious performance issues within a very short amount of time (unnoticeable, in fact, in comparison to the age of the universe) by virtue of its very "design."

A universe-creating god turned his attention to this lone micro-speck in the universe, engineered a plot to make all the dust come together to form a planet, set off a constant chain of chemical reactions to induce abiogenesis to create RNA and cellular life which evolved into fish and then split into many different species including dinosaurs who ruled the planet over our mammalian ancestors hundreds of millions of years ago, engineered things from the very beginning to have a meteor slam into the planet so that the dinosaurs all died so that mammals ruled the earth (instead of just engineering things so that they ruled it from the very beginning? What perfect universe-creating god fucks up and has to use the cosmic equivalent of an eraser to correct a mistake??), then had everything laid out so we advanced from more primitive simians and developed our frontal lobe so we could better communicate and make use of our environment...even though the planet tried killing us all along the way...which seems weird given we weren't even consciously intelligent at that time...and then was largely silent throughout most of the early time period when we WERE sapient, but when he DID speak, he spoke only to a group of nomads living in the desert, deciding, arbitrarily, that the rest of humanity just wasn't worth it...

I mean, if you genuinely believe we human beings are that important, then...man...your arrogance...WHOO. It's pretty high up there on the charts. That's one hell of a sense of unwarranted self-importance you've got going on.

We're not that important. We're not the result of a grand cosmic design. We're just the product of random chance. If a couple variables had been flipped, the dominant sapient race could have been giant suction-toed creatures that look like something out of Spore. Just because things happened the way they did doesn't mean something meant for them to happen.

Shit just happens, dude. Sure, we ask questions of "why" all the time but in truth there's no real answers. Everyone has different answers to the why, and none of them match up to each other. All these wildly different conclusions...god sure fucked up when it came to making sure his "chosen people" got the right message, cuz it seems like he came in many avatars and forms for the sole purpose of fucking with his chosen creations.

There's no "why." There is simply "how."

[Ravenshire]

I use terms as I understand them.

Buy a fucking dictionary and educate yourself then.

I don't redefine anything.

Yes, you do. You've been doing it all over the place and getting called out on it.


BTW - Nice how you ignored everything I had to say earlier. Too much for you?

---

And archaeological evidence of people and places in the bible lend credence to the god of the bible.

So, do you believe Harry Potter is a real person?!?

---

I respond to everyone

Bullshit!

---

Faith is the evidence when there is no evidence.

Faith (the way you use it) is belief without, or in the face of contrary evidence. That's not much used around here.

---

You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?"

Would you shut the fuck up about what evolution is until you learn something about it?!? Evolution has nothing to do with the formation of the universe, astronomy, plate tectonics, the origins of life or anything else but changes in life from natural selection. And, even that is only "pure, random , chaotic chance" when we're talking about genetic mutations.

Seriously, learn about your topic before opening your mouth or fucking keep it closed!

Man, what does atheism do to the human perception, its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality!

No, that would be belief in god(s)

It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god;

Fuck our "birthright" and your god. We have neither.

Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

Only of they put on your god colored glasses.

goodness.

Like you'd know anything about that.

[Zidneya]

mickiel
Religious Views: Non religious, believes in God

I've got news for you pal. If you believe in God you are religious. That definition applies to all believers independently if they are part of a institutionalized theological system or not.

[SteelCurtain]

---

This analogy has been used before, but I don't remember you addressing it, so I'll pose it to you again. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey contain references to historical events, people, and places. Does this lend any validity to the god claims contained within those texts? Does the fact that Homer sometimes accurately portrayed historical events in his epics mean anything about the existence or nonexistence of Zeus, Hera, Demeter, or Poseidon?

If not, then why is the Bible held to a different standard?

---

You're comparison is illusion , an attempt to deflect or disarm what I am doing. I am giving real biblical characters and events in our history, and the professional archaeology that confirms it. Greek gods and their mythical places are illusions, no professional has uncovered evidence of them. In judges 7:1 Gideon had a cave, we have that cave now; its no myth and no game; Its simply a real standard;

http://www.gemsinisrael.com/e_article000002707.htm

*Your

What? Is your head really that far stuck up your own ass? Are you saying that the city of Troy is an illusion? Are you saying that the Trojan War is completely a fabrication of people wishing to... do what exactly? These are real events (even if the records of said events were exaggerated), real places, and real people that actually existed, with archaeological evidence. The real kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy

http://archive.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy.html

According to the archaeological and historical findings of the past decade especially, it is now more likely than not that there were several armed conflicts in and around Troy at the end of the Late Bronze Age. At present we do not know whether all or some of these conflicts were distilled in later memory into the "Trojan War" or whether among them there was an especially memorable, single "Trojan War." However, everything currently suggests that Homer should be taken seriously, that his story of a military conflict between Greeks and the inhabitants of Troy is based on a memory of historical events--whatever these may have been. If someone came up to me at the excavation one day and expressed his or her belief that the Trojan War did indeed happen here, my response as an archaeologist working at Troy would be: Why not?