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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 7:45 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2014 at 7:47 am by fr0d0.)
(June 24, 2014 at 7:34 am)Irrational Wrote: It is possible to have a morality consensus without it being objective.
Legal rules are still based on some human standard.
But a human standard that is completely unreliable?
Thank you for the confirmation rhythm. Why you have to be an asshole is entirely understandable. Mods shouldn't be assholes. I guess you skipped quality control.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:01 am
I prefer abrasive.
You know, in reading the two of you's back and forth it's occurred to me that perhaps considering morality as standard based and law as outcome based would tease apart any issues where entanglement of the two makes it seem like two contradictory statements could be equally valid. A problem of composition, non overlapping and all that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:02 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2014 at 8:03 am by GrandizerII.)
(June 24, 2014 at 7:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 24, 2014 at 7:34 am)Irrational Wrote: It is possible to have a morality consensus without it being objective.
Legal rules are still based on some human standard.
But a human standard that is completely unreliable?
Depends on the country you're in.
(June 24, 2014 at 8:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: I prefer abrasive.
You know, in reading the two of you's back and forth it's occurred to me that perhaps considering morality as standard based and law as outcome based would tease apart any issues where entanglement of the two makes it seem like two contradictory statements could be equally valid. A problem of composition, non overlapping and all that.
I think this exchange should be moved to another thread, what do you say?
This should be about abortion, not morality in general
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:04 am
Yo Arthur, let me see if you've learned how the burden of proof works yet.
I have a dragon in my shed.
Can you prove that I don't?
NO?
Oh well it must be true.
Can you describe what is wrong with what I just said?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:09 am
(June 24, 2014 at 7:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 24, 2014 at 7:34 am)Irrational Wrote: It is possible to have a morality consensus without it being objective.
Legal rules are still based on some human standard.
But a human standard that is completely unreliable?
Thank you for the confirmation rhythm. Why you have to be an asshole is entirely understandable. Mods shouldn't be assholes. I guess you skipped quality control.
Frodo, reality is messy and there is no such thing as a utopia. We have common law for a reason and we have peaceful transfer of power through elections for a reason. Absolute morality through political or religious ideology doesnt do shit to value consent and oversight. It simply gives humans an excuse to be petulant tribal gangs.
This isn't just about abortion, but life in general. If every sing person, believer or atheist, got to have absolute power we could all think of reasons to get violent with people we disagree with.
Now since this thread IS about abortion let me tell you that despite what pro birthers might think, and as I have said before. Abortions are not something any of us find joy in and throw parties over. AND like pro lifers we do value the idea of a healthy kid and wanted baby. The problem is that between the health of the mother, baby and economics, you will NOT end up with that happy ending 100% of the time. All outlawing abortion will do is make it more dangerous and get more girls/women killed needlessly.
The best anyone is going to get is to allow a trained doctor to asses the circumstances of all the factors and allow the girl/women and doctor to make that decision.
The baby is ONE factor in this, but not the only factor.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:16 am
(June 24, 2014 at 8:02 am)Irrational Wrote: I think this exchange should be moved to another thread, what do you say?
This should be about abortion, not morality in general
I think this is the crux of the matter here. If there is no hard morality that would confirm that killing an innocent human is always wrong, then Arthur's premise is undermined.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:16 am
The key to reducing abortion is actually what pro choice advocates do. You provide health care for women, you provide contraception for men and women, you educate boys and girls as to how the human body works. But our ECONOMY is actually the most important factor as far as better pay, and better education. Improving economic stability is going to allow families more balance and more opportunity to plan ahead. Puritanical draconian laws will not solve anything.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:17 am
That's pretty much the bottom line for me as well Brian. Even if I wanted to be a moral busybody here for some godawful reason I just can't bring myself to it. Ensuring that the law does not create victims who are then punished for having been victimized would seem to be to good an idea to pass on.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:17 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2014 at 8:18 am by fr0d0.)
(June 24, 2014 at 8:16 am)Brian37 Wrote: The key to reducing abortion is actually what pro choice advocates do. You provide health care for women, you provide contraception for men and women, you educate boys and girls as to how the human body works. But our ECONOMY is actually the most important factor as far as better pay, and better education. Improving economic stability is going to allow families more balance and more opportunity to plan ahead. Puritanical draconian laws will not solve anything.
I think that's what Bill Gates it's saying. More about poverty, but it's the same thing.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 24, 2014 at 8:24 am
(June 24, 2014 at 8:16 am)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 24, 2014 at 8:02 am)Irrational Wrote: I think this exchange should be moved to another thread, what do you say?
This should be about abortion, not morality in general
I think this is the crux of the matter here. If there is no hard morality that would confirm that killing an innocent human is always wrong, then Arthur's premise is undermined.
Did you not read a fucking think I just said about absolute morality? You know to get what you want you would have to become a dictator with absolute power yourself.
Ok, lets assume abortion gets outlawed, what should be the punishment for a girl say, 12-15 years old who gets one? Don't be a fucking hypocrite and just charge the doctor. WHAT SHOULD BE THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE GIRL/WOMAN?
Offer me the statue of punishment for the GIRL, otherwise you are simply cherry picking.
In most of America when you have TWO people involved in a murder they both get charged.
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