Faith is a measure of irrationality

[ronedee]

"deeply irrational"?! To you maybe. But, I have living, breathing proof!

Um..no, Ron, deeply irrational, as in deeply irrational as defined by logical constraints - the authority on what is or is not within the purvey of what is "rational". You don't have living breathing proof because you don't have any proof. Inigo Montoya moment. What you have isn't even evidence that you would accept (if you didn't have faith), if you'll recall.

Call it anything you want. But it works for me, and mine. And has been for years.

What works? What work is it doing? What is it? Do I dismiss this out of hand or are we going to see something to consider?

It keeps my Faith strong going forward. I've erased fear of anything out of my life by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. It's an amazing thing to have absolutely no fear of anything, or anyone!

And the only way to have that is to have God.

Just what, or whom...in your imagination....do I fear? Your claim would seem to be untrue by the simple virtue of my presence in the discussion. Seems to me that you feel that I'm out to prove that you're wrong on these claims. I'm not, I don't care. I think that they're campfire stories. What I am engaging you about, is your continually underachieving rational process. I feel that I've made a fairly simple point here - and I've humored you piling claims on top of claims, but I don't think I'm willing to go any further unless we can get a little back and forth going.

This is quite comical... How do you explain Faith to people that have none?

Its like explaining the sky to a blind person. They have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about!

I "EXPECT" God to hear my prayers. And He answers them.

When you have a relationship with God? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THAT!

I'm seeing why Jesus was crucified right before my eyes. People got pissed because they couldn't understand Him!

[Mudhammam]

And it don't matter what you or the others think. It doesn't affect me in the least!

That's why nobody who has thought about it objectively for more than 5 minutes takes you seriously.

This is quite comical... How do you explain Faith to people that have none?

Its like explaining the sky to a blind person. They have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about!

I "EXPECT" God to hear my prayers. And He answers them.

When you have a relationship with God? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THAT!

I'm seeing why Jesus was crucified right before my eyes. People got pissed because they couldn't understand Him!

I'll be glad to concede, you're *special.*

[The Grand Nudger]

This is quite comical... How do you explain Faith to people that have none?

Its like explaining the sky to a blind person. They have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about!

It is quite comical. Have you ever seen the firing pin of an M249? Would you like for me to describe it to you? This, again, is deeply irrational.

I "EXPECT" God to hear my prayers. And He answers them.

When you have a relationship with God? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THAT!

-and yet you pay your bills on time, you show up to work, the kids are fed, the house is clean, the spouse is sated....... That's just too much man, are we still having a serious discussion?

I'm seeing why Jesus was crucified right before my eyes. People got pissed because they couldn't understand Him!

My lack of understanding had nothing to do with his crucifixion, nor, in your beliefs - did theirs. In your faith, jesus' crucifixion was a matter of prophecy and fulfillment. Those people had to make those choices, those things had to be done. This was the will of god and fulfillment of his promises. Jesus was crucified because -you- need him to have been crucified. Try to take some responsibility for that, rather than curtly accusing others of having been accessories to torture and human sacrifice. If you want to maintain that these are real people then treat them as such and show a little respect for the shitty position your theology demanded of them.

[ThomM]

Um..no, Ron, deeply irrational, as in deeply irrational as defined by logical constraints - the authority on what is or is not within the purvey of what is "rational". You don't have living breathing proof because you don't have any proof. Inigo Montoya moment. What you have isn't even evidence that you would accept (if you didn't have faith), if you'll recall.

What works? What work is it doing? What is it? Do I dismiss this out of hand or are we going to see something to consider?

Just what, or whom...in your imagination....do I fear? Your claim would seem to be untrue by the simple virtue of my presence in the discussion. Seems to me that you feel that I'm out to prove that you're wrong on these claims. I'm not, I don't care. I think that they're campfire stories. What I am engaging you about, is your continually underachieving rational process. I feel that I've made a fairly simple point here - and I've humored you piling claims on top of claims, but I don't think I'm willing to go any further unless we can get a little back and forth going.

This is quite comical... How do you explain Faith to people that have none?

Its like explaining the sky to a blind person. They have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about!

I "EXPECT" God to hear my prayers. And He answers them.

When you have a relationship with God? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THAT!

I'm seeing why Jesus was crucified right before my eyes. People got pissed because they couldn't understand Him!

With thousands of claimed gods - prove YOU have a relationship with an actual god - and not one with a fairy tale book,

IF your god answers your prayers - why is there WAR and DISEASE among humans? (Have you never asked for peace?) Why are babies - who cannot sin - and are not responsible for the sins of others - born with limbs missing - other body parts missing - with mental or physical deficiencies. Remember they are BOTH too young to be responsible for their own actions so they cannot have sinned to deserve it - and Newborns are too young to have been affected by any DEVIL you would claim too.

The christ is another MYTH - there is NOT a single mention of him in the hostorical record of his supposed time - NOT a ONE. YOU personally never saw the christ at all - and people cannot understand "him" because the stories about him contradict themselves constantly.

Sorry - the problem is - your claim is preposterous
BUT then - you can prove yourself to be correct - Ask your god to have all new born babies be born whole. ANd then have it happen - I won't be holding my breath - because your god is imaginary if it DOES NOT do that.

---

This is quite comical... How do you explain Faith to people that have none?

Its like explaining the sky to a blind person. They have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about!

It is quite comical. Have you ever seen the firing pin of an M249? Would you like for me to describe it to you? This, again, is deeply irrational.

I "EXPECT" God to hear my prayers. And He answers them.

When you have a relationship with God? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THAT!

-and yet you pay your bills on time, you show up to work, the kids are fed, the house is clean, the spouse is sated....... That's just too much man, are we still having a serious discussion?

I'm seeing why Jesus was crucified right before my eyes. People got pissed because they couldn't understand Him!

My lack of understanding had nothing to do with his crucifixion, nor, in your beliefs - did theirs. In your faith, jesus' crucifixion was a matter of prophecy and fulfillment. Those people had to make those choices, those things had to be done. This was the will of god and fulfillment of his promises. Jesus was crucified because -you- need him to have been crucified. Try to take some responsibility for that, rather than curtly accusing others of having been accessories to torture and human sacrifice. If you want to maintain that these are real people then treat them as such and show a little respect for the shitty position your theology demanded of them.

IF the christ was really an all knowing god - why did he supposedly ask - Why have YOU forsaken me ?- when speaking to HIS god
If the god is ONE god and he was god too- then he would have already known!

[Bad Wolf]

But my repeatable evidence isn't enough for you.... you've "made up" your mind.

Your 'evidence' as you so generously put it, is not repeatable in any way. It is anecdotal and therefore useless. And yes, unfortunately I have made up my mind, that is to say, I have come to a conclusion based on what you have said. This doesn't mean that I won't listen to anything you have to say ever again. This doesn't mean i'm going to ignore evidence. You're just moaning because I don't believe you, its a common reaction from theists when their beliefs are challenged to just whine and say: 'you won't believe anything'.

And they claim here that we use circular reasoning?

Sometimes you do, but so far I have not noticed any in this thread or seen anyone accuse of it.

LOL! Here... I'll spell it out for you... I believe you. You don't believe me. That plain enough for you?

I want a little more detail. Please explain why I don't agree with you that it was a miracle. Let me clarify: please explain what you think are the reasons for me believing it wasn't a miracle.

Do I need to repeat over, and over that I am aware that "things" could've "happened" any number of ways? Or are you just dense?

I'm aware that you are aware. But you have not addressed this. You haven't explained why you believe it was a miracle over just chance or luck. I posit to you that you are the dense one. Did you just get a 'good feeling' that it was a miracle? That must be it because that is all you have to go on since all the evidence points the other way.

AGAIN... I agree. But, when they happen consistently I take notice. It wasn't just any "shit" happening either!

There is actually a scientifically proven effect (I can't remember what it is called) where as soon as you notice something new, you start to see it everywhere. I have experienced this many times. And I disagree with you, your mother being saved was just an example of 'shit happening'.

So, you wouldn't mind someone taking some shots at your family?

What are we talking about here? Shots with guns? Or just someone on the internet talking shit. If it was the latter, no I wouldn't care because getting mad about the choice of a random strangers words is stupid.

Humans in general Mr Wolf...

Really? Did you ask all of them?

but you are an animal I assume?

Damn right, and so are you. So is everybody.

That was ONE event, out of many.

So bring on the others then.

I have repeatable evidence of "something" happening. Give it whatever "name" you'd like to.

You don't know what 'repeatable evidence' is do you?
And even if you have repeatable evidence of 'something' happening, that's all you have: evidence of 'something' happening. It in no way implies your god any more than it implies allah or Vishnu or thor or odin or wotan.

I'll play along here... You actually farted twice in anticipation of 2 goals?

No, I farted twice in quick succession and then the Netherlands scored two goals in quick succession.

I'd like to see/hear that. Did you record it? Do you have proof that happened?

I didn't record my farts but you could probably watch a replay of the game.

You don't understand why this is funny do you? See, you said you were praying and all of a sudden a doctor ran in and told you your mother would live. What evidence do you have that it was the prayer that did anything? How do you know your faith paid off? Answer: you don't. In the exact same way that I don't have any evidence that my farts caused the two Netherland goals.

I don't think you understand this but I was never claiming that the events I described actually happened but I was simply using it in the hope that a preposterous example would make you think about your own ridiculous position. This seems to have failed. I thought it was obvious though....

I have proof that what happened in the hospital did indeed happen. Also, hundreds of other "happenings", that are complex in their unfolding and nature.

You mean stories, you have anecdotes and stories. I see that you are refraining from using the word 'evidence' and instead opted for 'happenings'. What a fantastically broad word that you can expand and contract the meaning of whenever you see fit.

The irony is that you are looking, but refuse to see!

Nope, that still isn't irony. I'm not looking for anything in particular, I came from a neutral perspective. I assessed your anecdote on its own merits. Unlike you who had already set out looking for miracles. I am an unbiased source while you are not.

Just the premise of a "miracle" bothers you!

Yes it bothers me, because no-body can seem to agree on what a miracle is or what its definition is. And if they do actually define the word 'miracle', as soon as we rule out the possibility of the miracle based on their own definition, they just change the definition.
Also, miracles bother me because, all they are really, are unexplained phenomena. You may claim to know that your event was a miracle and a divine act of god, but you don't. You have no way of knowing. So in the end, it just turns into a huge argument from ignorance. 'We don't know what caused this event, therefore it must have been our god'.
Not only is that a logical fallacy but it is also extremely arrogant and ignorant. It could have been Thor or Odin or Ganesh that caused the miracle, but you have no way of knowing either way but you still claim it was your god.

Why look? That is the question?

Because that is how we progress as a species. We look at something we can't explain and we try to figure out what caused it. If we didn't, we would still be sacrificing goats to Thor every time there was a thunderstorm.

[ronedee]

...so much error, so little time!

I would be up all night responding to each of you.

The theme here is Faith and its measure of irrationality?

I gave all of you a sampling of my Faith. It didn't sprout up over night, from some vision of God in my my toast.

But, in the 15 or so years we have been praying for others, there have been too many prayers answered to ignore. And to be 100% truthful, even in the face of these so called "miracles", I was happy, but I wasn't convinced!

Ironically what has convinced me to some degree were the things that didn't workout: One in particular was a man who said our prayers wouldn't help him. He was right. A few days later he was dead. That was a shock and surprise. Because we prayed for him anyway and expected him to live!

So, there is an instance of the "person" who flat out didn't believe. I'm assuming now that you have to believe in prayer to have it work for you. Now there is a factor for you to chew on, why prayer doesn't work in 'every' instance.

And there were a few more things we prayed for that didn't workout. And at some point later on, it became apparent to us "why" they didn't. But ... it all added up over time that God was indeed answering our prayers. More times, than not. And with reason, and understanding given to us as to "why", and "why not"!

I'm with you all on the doubt issue. I was there for many years. And I will concede that I don't have the kind of evidence you need to believe. But, you have to understand its not about "making" you believe anything. There is no urgency on my part for you to believe me.. It works for me.

No. The important thing is that I know! I was once like you. I needed evidence.... even in the face of "miracles". I realize now that Faith is what this life is based on. If God is to work in our lives, it has to be around all of "our" free choice. And we need to understand those "workings". That is not easy to do unless you have a complete understanding, and intimate relationship with God, through Faith. Rom 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

But again, how can i impart my understanding to you? It won't make a bit of sense. I've come to realize that all I'm doing here on this atheists forum is "maybe" helping some of the 100's of casual readers who might be on the fence, and/or get a boost from my debates with you non-believers. I don't expect to reach any one of you here. At least not in a spiritual way.

I have one simple rule: Help everyone in some way, that I come in contact with. Even you guys! With all this great advice I'm bestowing on you now!

I try to serve my fellow human beings, and not focus on myself too much. It keeps me humble, and Christlike!

And that, in the end is all that God wants from us! To Love Him, and one another.

Matt 25:40 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!'

[The Grand Nudger]

You're sounding the trumpets to retreat while simultaneously doubling down on the exact form of claim in question. I don't see any barriers to faith in this conversation -beyond your inability to communicate whatever happened to you in a cogent manner. It is impossible, fucking impossible man....to have a conversation with a person who - having been confronted with the contradictory or self-defeating nature of their own statements - fails to modify those statements so as to make them intelligible. I can't figure out what you're trying to express because your explanations are cancelling each other out. Understand?

[BlackMason]

But, if Jesus' words are correct, "the Kingdom is found within"..... what is needed to find it? FAITH. And "IF" indeed it does work for those who have it....

Well when will you know that you've found it? I think your whole position is unfalsifiable and therefore you resort to faith. When does faith cross the rubicon and become reason. In other words when will you have the evidence that you have found the kingdom of god? Also you need to have an idea of what kind of evidence you are looking for. Otherwise you may prematurely conclude you have found said kingdom.

Also what I would like to know is those who claim faith works for them, how do they know it is the faith and not something else?

[The Grand Nudger]

Great points Mason. I'd love to make a contribution with regards to having an idea what sorts of evidence one might be looking for. A christian might tell you that those things are in the bible. But heres my beef.

If I told a christian that there was no god, and that the evidence that there was no god was in locker 34c at my local metro station - and upon arriving at the local metro and opening locker 34c there is a handwritten note (in my pen) stating "there is no god" - what are the odds of that person losing their faith?

So when the believer is told that the sorts of evidence that prove the claim would be a, b, and c - by the bible - haven't they allowed the claimant to pigeonhole their perceptions? To guide them to exactly what the claimant wants them to see? I can't be the only person who sees the potential for mischief here, nor can I be the only person who understands why the contents of locker 34c are suspect - even when we experience them to be true. After all...that note was where I said it would be, wasn't it? Similarly, I don't think that any of these claimed experiences actually had the effect that is being attributed to them. I mean, any believers who want to correct me here - and tell me how convincing and persuasive my note is can just leave some money in 34c - but I'm not expecting to get rich, you know?

(I find that reformulating arguments in favor of god as arguments against god demonstrates to the claimant exactly what;s wrong with their claim. They;re more likely to notice problems with a claim you make, and especially so with a claim against god that you make - so thanks for humoring me in this thread in that regard)

[Jacob(smooth)]

Am I the only one who wants rhythm to describe the firing pin of an m249?