should america support Israel?

[Anomalocaris]

How many of the 5 million Palestinians are involved in the armed struggle? 1%?

If the Israelis didn't proactively send so many bulldozers to involve so many Palestinians, I am sure fewer Palestinians would be involved.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Why should Palestinians have a goal other than destroying a country which was imposed upon them and marginalized them in a land to which by all rights they have a stronger claim?

That is disputed by the very fact that Jews were exiled during the Roman empire, which predates Islam by more than 700 years. True that the Jews of the 19th century were "newcomers" but their ancestors were originally from Palestine. The claim that Palestinians have stronger rights than Jews is no more valid that American Natives have more rights than Americans of European ancestry to be in America. Besides that, do you really think that 7 millions Israelis will pick up and leave Israel? And where would they go? It's their home. They won't leave. And Palestinians don't have the military power to achieve their goal. So as long as they continue their war, and keep losing, they will end up where they are today: a life of misery.

My ancestors are from England, Scotland, Germany, and Montana.

Where the hell is my land?

The idea of group rights from the past being more important than those of individuals today is something to be deprecated, lest you commit injustice in the name of history. Strive to make the world as it exists today as fair.

/.02

[little_monkey]

That is disputed by the very fact that Jews were exiled during the Roman empire, which predates Islam by more than 700 years. True that the Jews of the 19th century were "newcomers" but their ancestors were originally from Palestine. The claim that Palestinians have stronger rights than Jews is no more valid that American Natives have more rights than Americans of European ancestry to be in America. Besides that, do you really think that 7 millions Israelis will pick up and leave Israel? And where would they go? It's their home. They won't leave. And Palestinians don't have the military power to achieve their goal. So as long as they continue their war, and keep losing, they will end up where they are today: a life of misery.

My ancestors are from England, Scotland, Germany, and Montana.

Where the hell is my land?

The idea of group rights from the past being more important than those of individuals today is something to be deprecated, lest you commit injustice in the name of history. Strive to make the world as it exists today as fair.

/.02

Chuck believes Palestinians have a stronger claim. Go figure.

[Anomalocaris]

I do. Those who were dispossessed within living memory have a stronger claim to the loot those who profited from the dispossession. The Jews apparently believe this also when they are the dispossessed, which is why they still seek to recover, without compensation, art taken from them during NAZI era which have now passed onto second or third hands. But they stopped believing this when they are the dispossessors.

[little_monkey]

I do. Those who were dispossessed within living memory have a stronger claim to the loot those who profited from the dispossession. The Jews apparently believe this also when they are the dispossessed, which is why they still seek to recover, without compensation, art taken from them during NAZI era which have now passed onto second or third hands. But they stopped believing this when they are the dispossessors.

You've completely missed the boat as you are mixing your apples with your oranges. The conflict is not about possession/dispossession of an object - be it a piece of land, a house or a piece of art. When Jews started to move back into what was then called Palestine in the 19th century, they BOUGHT the land from Palestinians who were more than willing to sell their properties at whatever market value it was in those days. As of today, 20% of Israelis are non-Jews - the vast majority of those people are Muslims with a tiny fraction being Christians. These have the right to buy/sell/own properties just like any other citizen of Israel. As to those Palestinians who fled the conflict in 1948 and never returned, that's because not that Israel barred them, they can go back, but they would be living under Israeli rule, and that they refuse to do. So this dispossession is self-imposed.

The real conflict is not about possession/dispossession but about the creation of a state, which the Palestinians have vowed since 1948 the destruction of the state of Israel. Get up to speed with the real issue as you are sorely ignorant.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Chuck believes Palestinians have a stronger claim. Go figure.

And Chuck may well have a point. I'm too old to think that only I have the right answers. That is why usually I will express my opinions, but not rake anyone over the coals for disagreeing with me. Life is not didactic; I strive to avoid it as well.

I do. Those who were dispossessed within living memory have a stronger claim to the loot those who profited from the dispossession. The Jews apparently believe this also when they are the dispossessed, which is why they still seek to recover, without compensation, art taken from them during NAZI era which have now passed onto second or third hands. But they stopped believing this when they are the dispossessors.

This is a good example of a good point he's making. It's rather hypocritical of Jewish organizations to work towards the recovery of Jewish property stolen during the Holocaust while at the same time denying any obligation to compensate Palestinians for land seized for settlements.

[Anomalocaris]

I do. Those who were dispossessed within living memory have a stronger claim to the loot those who profited from the dispossession. The Jews apparently believe this also when they are the dispossessed, which is why they still seek to recover, without compensation, art taken from them during NAZI era which have now passed onto second or third hands. But they stopped believing this when they are the dispossessors.

You've completely missed the boat as you are mixing your apples with your oranges. The conflict is not about possession/dispossession of an object - be it a piece of land, a house or a piece of art. When Jews started to move back into what was then called Palestine in the 19th century, they BOUGHT the land from Palestinians who were more than willing to sell their properties at whatever market value it was in those days. As of today, 20% of Israelis are non-Jews - the vast majority of those people are Muslims with a tiny fraction being Christians. These have the right to buy/sell/own properties just like any other citizen of Israel. As to those Palestinians who fled the conflict in 1948 and never returned, that's because not that Israel barred them, they can go back, but they would be living under Israeli rule, and that they refuse to do. So this dispossession is self-imposed.

The real conflict is not about possession/dispossession but about the creation of a state, which the Palestinians have vowed since 1948 the destruction of the state of Israel. Get up to speed with the real issue as you are sorely ignorant.

Israel May choose to define the boat in such a visionary manner that Israel can convince itself it is always right, and those who point out Israel is doing onto others what it thinks ought not be done onto itself as having "missed the boat". But I do not see the boat the same way.

The real issue is Israel possesses a state in the land of Palestine, against the wishes of a Palestinians, to whom belongs the legitimate right, now dispossessed, to any state within the former Palestine.

To define one apple as an orange so one could steal it without in one's own mind contravening the general rule against theft of apples, especially the said rule is useful one one's own other pursuits, is disgraceful and contemptible.

[little_monkey]

You've completely missed the boat as you are mixing your apples with your oranges. The conflict is not about possession/dispossession of an object - be it a piece of land, a house or a piece of art. When Jews started to move back into what was then called Palestine in the 19th century, they BOUGHT the land from Palestinians who were more than willing to sell their properties at whatever market value it was in those days. As of today, 20% of Israelis are non-Jews - the vast majority of those people are Muslims with a tiny fraction being Christians. These have the right to buy/sell/own properties just like any other citizen of Israel. As to those Palestinians who fled the conflict in 1948 and never returned, that's because not that Israel barred them, they can go back, but they would be living under Israeli rule, and that they refuse to do. So this dispossession is self-imposed.

The real conflict is not about possession/dispossession but about the creation of a state, which the Palestinians have vowed since 1948 the destruction of the state of Israel. Get up to speed with the real issue as you are sorely ignorant.

Israel May choose to define the boat in such a visionary manner that Israel can convince itself it is always right, and those who point out Israel is doing onto others what it thinks ought not be done onto itself as having "missed the boat". But I do not see the boat the same way.

The real issue is Israel possesses a state in the land of Palestine, against the wishes of a Palestinians, to whom belongs the legitimate right, now dispossessed, to any state within the former Palestine.

To define one apple as an orange so one could steal it without in one's own mind contravening the general rule against theft of apples, especially the said rule is useful one one's own other pursuits, is disgraceful and contemptible.

War is ugly. The cost in human lives for WW2 was over 60 millions. Do you see Germany or Japan embarking in a militaristic path? No, because they learned their lesson at tremendous cost. Obviously, the Palestinians have NOT paid that huge cost, not huge enough to make them realize the folly of their decision to continue a war they have engaged for over 60 years. Unfortunately, the Israelis don't have the guts to finish the job: bomb Gaza until the Palestinians wave the white flag and surrender unconditionally. Until then, there will be what we've had in the past 10 years - a limited series of bombings, followed by a truce during which the Palestinians will re-arm and continue their attacks, followed by again a limited series of bombings and so on. I will not shred a tear for the Palestinians as they are getting a lot less than what they really deserve. Perhaps when a million of them are killed, those who are left behind will come to their sense and drop their weapons and wave the white flag. In that case only will talk of peace actually happen.

[The Grand Nudger]

-and to hear the lamentation of their woman.

They -could- do all of that, or they could just entertain a two state solution (or a single state solution sans concentration camps).

[Thumpalumpacus]

Israel May choose to define the boat in such a visionary manner that Israel can convince itself it is always right, and those who point out Israel is doing onto others what it thinks ought not be done onto itself as having "missed the boat". But I do not see the boat the same way.

The real issue is Israel possesses a state in the land of Palestine, against the wishes of a Palestinians, to whom belongs the legitimate right, now dispossessed, to any state within the former Palestine.

To define one apple as an orange so one could steal it without in one's own mind contravening the general rule against theft of apples, especially the said rule is useful one one's own other pursuits, is disgraceful and contemptible.

War is ugly. The cost in human lives for WW2 was over 60 millions. Do you see Germany or Japan embarking in a militaristic path? No, because they learned their lesson at tremendous cost. Obviously, the Palestinians have NOT paid that huge cost, not huge enough to make them realize the folly of their decision to continue a war they have engaged for over 60 years. Unfortunately, the Israelis don't have the guts to finish the job: bomb Gaza until the Palestinians wave the white flag and surrender unconditionally. Until then, there will be what we've had in the past 10 years - a limited series of bombings, followed by a truce during which the Palestinians will re-arm and continue their attacks, followed by again a limited series of bombings and so on. I will not shred a tear for the Palestinians as they are getting a lot less than what they really deserve. Perhaps when a million of them are killed, those who are left behind will come to their sense and drop their weapons and wave the white flag. In that case only will talk of peace actually happen.

I'd argue that the cultural psychology of both the Japanese and the Germans had as much, if not more, to do with the turnaround those countries saw after World War II.

Additionally, with the Marshall Plan (and separate aid for the Japanese) we were able to buy their compliance with peaceful international norms. I don't see that happening with Israel after any hypothetical total defeat of the Palestinians. The upshot of such an outcome would likely be more hatred and violence in the long run.

I find it disturbing how many pro-Israel posters are willing to consider "millions" of deaths acceptable.