A question about the love of god

[The Grand Nudger]

You don't see it in the OT because the OT writers regarded "demons" or "devils" simply as idols, false gods with neither spirit nor substance. The closest thing in the OT are the "unclean spirits" which are, point of fact - sent by god and remarkably similar to disease in many respects themselves (and also to later conceptions of demons). Begs an interesting question, why such a disparity between the OT and NT in this regard?

(I'd chalk it up to cultural contamination - personally)

[Brakeman]

What about the demon possessed boy's own free will?? How fair is it for a boy to risk eternal damnation by being unable to rid himself of the demon without jesus' help? Because the demons can evidentially control the victim's mind, a second person, the exorcist, becomes necessary. Why doesn't the devil fill us all with demons? Is there a shortage?
Where can we atheists go to pick out our own demon? Why are the demons as described in the bible extinct today?
Could they not evolve? What powers a demon? Is it powered by the lesser light of the moon, via falso-synthesis?

Have you read the book of demonology written by King James? Yes! That king James!
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/kjd/

Here's what he had to say on the subject:

WEL, I haue told you now all my doubts, and ye haue satisfied me therein, concerning the first of these two kindes of spirites that ye haue conjoyned. Now I am to inquire onely two thinges at you concerning the last kinde, I meane the Dæmoniackes. The first is, whereby shal these possessed folks be discerned fra them that ar trubled with a natural Phrensie or Manie. The next is, how can it be that they can be remedied by the Papistes Church, whome wee counting as Hereticques, it should appeare that one Deuil should not cast out an other, for then would his kingdome be diuided in it selfe, as CHRIST said.[1]

EPI. As to your first question; there are diuers symptomes, whereby that heauie trouble may be discerned from a naturall sickenesse, and speciallie three, omitting the diuers vaine signes that the Papistes attributes vnto it: Such as the raging at holie water, their fleeing a back from the Croce, their not abiding the hearing of God named, and innumerable such like vaine thinges that were alike fashious and feckles to recite. But to come to these three symptomes then, whereof I spake, I account the one of them to be the incredible strength of the possessed creature, which will farre exceede the strength of six of the wightest and wodest of any other men that are not so troubled. The next is the

[1. Mat. 12 Mark. 3]

{p. 71}

boldning vp so far of the patients breast and bellie, with such an vnnaturall sturring and vehement agitation within them: And such an ironie hardnes of his sinnowes so stiffelie bended out, that it were not possible to prick out as it were the skinne of anie other person so far: so mightely works the Deuil in all the members and senses of his body, he being locallie within the same, suppose of his Soule and affectiones thereof, hee haue no more power then of any other mans. The last is, the speaking of sundrie languages, which the patient is knowen by them that were acquainte with him neuer to haue learned, and that with an vncouth and hollowe voice, and al the time of his speaking, a greater motion being in his breast then in his mouth. But fra this last symptome is excepted such, as are altogether in the time of their possessing bereft of al their senses being possessed with a dumme and blynde spirite, whereof Christ releiued one, in the 12. Of Mathew. And as to your next demande, it is first to be doubted if the Papistes or anie not professing the the onelie true Religion, can relieue anie of that trouble. And next, in-case they can, vpon what respectes it is possible vnto them. As to the former vpon two reasons, it is grounded: first that it is knowen so manie of them to bee counterfite, which wyle the Clergie inuentes for confirming of their rotten Religion. The next is, that by experience we finde that few, who are possessed indeede, are fullie cured by them: but rather the Deuill is content to release the bodelie hurting of them, for a

{p. 72}

shorte space, thereby to obteine the perpetual hurt of the soules of so many that by these false miracles may be induced or confirmed in the profession of that erroneous Religion: euen as I told you before that he doth in the false cures, or casting off of diseases by Witches. As to the other part of the argument in-case they can, which rather (with reuerence of the learned thinking otherwaies) I am induced to beleeue, by reason of the faithfull report that men sound of religion, haue made according to their sight thereof, I think if so be, I say these may be the respectes, whereupon the Papistes may haue that power. CHRIST gaue a commission and power to his Apostles to cast out Deuilles, which they according thereunto put in execution: The rules he had them obserue in that action, was fasting and praier: & the action it selfe to be done in his name. This power of theirs proceeded not then of anie vertue in them, but onely in him who directed them. As was clearly proued by Iudas his hauing as greate power in that commission, as anie of the reste. It is easie then to be vnderstand that the casting out of Deuilles, is by the vertue of fasting and prayer, and in-calling of the name of God, suppose manie imperfectiones be in the person that is the instrumente, as CHRIST him selfe teacheth vs of the power that false Prophets sall haue to caste out Devils.[1] It is no wounder then, these respects of this action being considered, that it may be possible to the Papistes, though erring in sundrie points of Religion to accomplish this, if they vse the right

All of this from the guy whose name is proudly on your bible's cover..

[John V]

What about the demon possessed boy's own free will?? How fair is it for a boy to risk eternal damnation by being unable to rid himself of the demon without jesus' help?

Jesus did help.

Because the demons can evidentially control the victim's mind, a second person, the exorcist, becomes necessary. Why doesn't the devil fill us all with demons? Is there a shortage?
Where can we atheists go to pick out our own demon? Why are the demons as described in the bible extinct today?

As already noted, since there wasn't such demon possession in the OT, it seems that it happened as a challenge to Jesus and his followers.

Could they not evolve?

They apparently think they can.

[The Grand Nudger]

It wasn't so much a challenge for jesus as it was a vehicle for fulfilling prophecy; as the authors understood prophecy, in any case. I mean ffs Alpha - this shit didn't actually happen, lol. Of course demons don;t cause disease, and of course demons don;t "possess" people. They're confined to the page, where they have always been, and where they will always remain. This is like arguing over whether or not you have to be bitten by a werewolf - or merely drink water from a wolfs pawprint to "contract" the curse - and subsequently what type of magic oil will remove it.

Grow up buddy.

[John V]

It wasn't so much a challenge for jesus as it was a vehicle for fulfilling prophecy; as the authors understood prophecy, in any case. I mean ffs Alpha - this shit didn't actually happen, lol. Of course demons don;t cause disease, and of course demons don;t "possess" people. They're confined to the page, where they have always been, and where they will always remain. This is like arguing over whether or not you have to be bitten by a werewolf - or merely drink water from a wolfs pawprint to "contract" the curse - and subsequently what type of magic oil will remove it.

Grow up buddy.

Them grapes is sour!

[Zack]

I think it's because people didn't understand the relationship between germs and illness when these myths were formulated. If you got sick from bad food or sanitation it was because a god was displeased.

[rexbeccarox]

I think it's because people didn't understand the relationship between germs and illness when these myths were formulated. If you got sick from bad food or sanitation it was because a god was displeased.

^^ This.

Also, does it really need to be pointed out that there is no such thing as a demon?

[Tonus]

Also, does it really need to be pointed out that there is no such thing as a demon?

Now you've done it...

[Jenny A]

It wasn't so much a challenge for jesus as it was a vehicle for fulfilling prophecy; as the authors understood prophecy, in any case. I mean ffs Alpha - this shit didn't actually happen, lol. Of course demons don;t cause disease, and of course demons don;t "possess" people. They're confined to the page, where they have always been, and where they will always remain. This is like arguing over whether or not you have to be bitten by a werewolf - or merely drink water from a wolfs pawprint to "contract" the curse - and subsequently what type of magic oil will remove it.

Grow up buddy.

Them grapes is sour!

What grapes is sour?

You think Rhythm wants there to be demons and is is making them out to be bad things because he can't have them? Or perhaps he sees demon possessed people everywhere he looks and is making casting them out sound bad, because it can't be done? Or wait, maybe he's demon possessed himself and thinks keeping the little guy as a pet would be a good idea, because he can't get rid of him.

Aesop's Tale of the Fox and the Grapes

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, he doesn't know, he just wanted to troll and it sounded workable. Business as usual. Meanwhile, the adults will continue to have a conversation.

Rex, that would seem to be the case. Their lack of understanding leads to a sort of fugue state whereby any framework that can accomodate the observed phenoma couldn't rightly be called -wholly- irrational (IOW, they weren't dumb - they just started out with a premise that ended up not panning out). If we used the word spirit today to refer to germs, sans all the stuff about who sends them and how they could be removed- it wouldn't really impede our ability to produce modern medicine. This is, of course, what we see with early medicines. Some of them actually worked, even though the people who leveraged them thought that a spirit was the vehicle for that work (in the case of balm in gilead, for example). Considering sickness to be a "foul vapor" can yield results - and those results in turn might suggest to a person that their explanation is adequate. We can sometimes "get it right" for the "wrong reasons". This might account for the prevalence and persistence of such beliefs across the globe- and it's easy to see why they would make their way into both the OT and the NT. Disease and illness have been with us for as long as there has been an "us". Any all-encompassing view of the world would have to include them, or it would run the risk of failing to explain a significant portion of our experience.

-and yes, it does have to be pointed out to people that there are no demons, when those people express very clearly that there -are- demons, and it's clear that this idea has somehow informed their conclusions. Garbage in, garbage out.