Another "responsible" gun owner.

[The Grand Nudger]

DODGE! Cars have breaks and air bags, but they cannot be 50 feet wide and go 500 miles an hour, nor can you let a 5 year old drive one.

Safeties, hex key hammerlocks, heavy pull triggers, etc. Technically you -can- let a 5 year old drive a car, but it isn't a very good idea. Same thing with a gun (and the manufacturers are pretty clear about that in their documentation).

Once again, you are trying to make an argument I am not making. You are buying into their insidious crap allowing them to maintain a flooded market and and UNSAFE market regardless of legally or illegally purchased guns.

Who's insidious crap? I've never seen a gun commercial and I don't get pamphlets at my door. The only thing I've ever gotten from a gun manufacturer (besides the gun with all of those nice safety measures) is a long list of "don'ts" in the user manual. Manufacturers don't maintain markets, as much as they wish they could, they service them. The laws aren't anything that the manufacturer controls, nor do they control the enforcement, nor do they control whether or not a person follows them, nor do they control how stupid a person can be - they don't have that power or authority.

Get this through your head, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHTS. This is not about legal vs illegal. THIS IS ABOUT MARKETING.

This would be the first time I've used the word "rights" in our conversation - right here...and I, like you, have nothing to say on the matter because I, like you, don't think it's relevant in our conversation.

The makers do not give one shit about the amount they make or where they end up.

What an absurd thing to say. Manufacturers have to care about how many units they produce - doesn't matter if it's guns or widgets, if they don;t care they go out of business...cost/production. They also seem to care very much about where they end up, because you don't see unmarked trucks at the docks of Winchester unloading guns to whomever shows up that day. If people go on to do criminal or stupid shit with the product that they produce - in direct defiance of their own recommendations and design efforts and provisions of laws they are not capable of writing or enforcing....what...the fuck....can they do about that? Why is this on their head or hands? They care about who gets those guns - but even if you wanted to be a cynic, it doesn't matter if they care....we have laws that they are forced to comply with or be shut down.

(gotta mention here, btw, that the reason the market is so "flooded" is that they, unlike many other manufacturers..produce a product with staying power, a quality product..........if you buy a Rem 700 and treat it right you can expect to own it for your entire life, and pass it on to your kids...and their kids........and their kids............wish there were more manufacturers and products like that)

[Brian37]

You sound like the Koch brothers. Keep it up.

[FatAndFaithless]

I don't even know what you're trying to say. You keep saying "This is not about rights" when neither I nor Rhythm have ever mentioned 'rights'.

[Brian37]

This is about MONEY, not rights. This is about our business climate mentality. MONEY. This is about the climate that is allowing business of ALL industries to simply do whatever they want without any responsibility as to how their marketing affects society.

I am tired of the crybaby arguments that trying to counter arguments I am not making. MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!

THAT is what this is about. Use fear and or narcissism, that is how ALL marketing works. Not just with business but with religion as well. Scare the crap out of the public, or play off their vanity.

[FatAndFaithless]

*Backs of slowly, not making any sudden movements*

Okayy...

[Minimalist]

Gun owners are assumed to be 'responsible' until they do something stupid.

This assumption is misplaced.

[The Grand Nudger]

This is about MONEY, not rights. This is about our business climate mentality. MONEY. This is about the climate that is allowing business of ALL industries to simply do whatever they want without any responsibility as to how their marketing affects society.

I am tired of the crybaby arguments that trying to counter arguments I am not making. MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!

THAT is what this is about. Use fear and or narcissism, that is how ALL marketing works. Not just with business but with religion as well. Scare the crap out of the public, or play off their vanity.

Yes, manufacturing is about money (I hope no one's surprised by this), and while I'm as cynical as you are regarding the motives of businesses in general, I think it's unreasonable to assume that no consideration is given whatsoever - but even this is ancillary. Even if they didn't care (which they have to for legal reasons alone..no one requires all the safety features you'll find in a modern firearm -though some are requirements-) the prospect of liability is unappealing to business.

Marketying, meh, a bit shady - we've all seen the city race circuit ads for a shitty little 4-banger with the tiny disclaimer at the start, and while I'm certain that we could find some shady advertising on the part of gun manufacturers if we looked they don;t seem to be pushing it quite as hard as business in geral. Fucking hot pockets sell sex.....and I've never gotten laid by offering a girl a hot pocket. That said, gun manufacturers like anyone else who advertises are subject to laws, they do have to make "diclaimers" though in the case of a firearm it comes in the form of a long manual rather than 5 seconds of obscure text at the start of a commercial. I'm sure we could improve conditions in that regard and theres a faction dedidcated to that "truth in advertising"...but........

How does any of that make a gun manufacturer even remotely responsible when some jackass decides to do something phenomenally stupid?

I, like you, would like to see this sort of stuff happen less....if for no other reason than I would like to continue enjoying my firearms and ultimately, I can't see that happening with the way the river's flowing at present. However, I figure that the best way to solve a problem is to first accurately identify that problem so that we don't waste our time trying to fix something in a manner that would not be capable of fixing the problem in the first place. To my mind, to do otherwise is to expose the fact that we don't actually care about that problem at all - at least not enough to find an effective way of dealing with it.

[FatAndFaithless]

No kidding, you can only put so many "Don't do this you fucking moron" notices on a product before it becomes the responsibility of the user if they go ahead and do the fucking moronic thing anyway.

[Brian37]

Gun huggers " Instead of trying to fix things, I am going to make excuses to not change anything." Citizens United thinking. As long as you get what you want, who cares.

[FatAndFaithless]

Wow...I don't really think that's fair. How would you 'fix' things?