Some great news for a change!

[dyresand]

With the disturbing news from France today, at least there is some good news in US.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co...icals.html

"We are facing a crisis in America. Skepticism is rising [as if this is a bad thing]. Too many young people are leaving the faith. Few Christians are able to effectively share Jesus with others." Lee (I used to be an atheist) Strobel

This is pretty ironic but it fits this situation.



Its a miracle people are starting to think for themselves.

[abaris]

You know, I always keep wondering.

Here in Europe, in Western Europe to be precise, we had the so called '68 generation, named after the year of the largest student protests. It started out as a protest against Vietnam and many European governments supporting it, but it also broke up the encrusted structures of the postwar aera, religion among them.

Point is, it was a mixed bag of activists carrying that movement. Some, like one of the most charismatic leaders, the German Rudi Dutschke, were christians, but others were outspoken atheists. It still led to religion as well as authoritarian structures taking the backseat in Europe from then on.

Since you had a similar movement in the USA, I wonder what happened that it didn't have any lasting effect.

[dyresand]

You know, I always keep wondering.

Here in Europe, in Western Europe to be precise, we had the so called '68 generation, named after the year of the largest student protests. It started out as a protest against Vietnam and many European governments supporting it, but it also broke up the encrusted structures of the postwar aera, religion among them.

Point is, it was a mixed bag of activists carrying that movement. Some, like one of the most charismatic leaders, the German Rudi Dutschke, were christians, but others were outspoken atheists. It still led to religion as well as authoritarian structures taking the backseat in Europe from then on.

Since you had a similar movement in the USA, I wonder what happened that it didn't have any lasting effect.

Yes we had stoners, potheads, college student's protesting and wood stock. But there is one thing i can say we may have lost in Vietnam but at least we saved civilian lives that were going to be killed. Dad is a Vietnam vet i am proud of him.

[KevinM1]

You know, I always keep wondering.

Here in Europe, in Western Europe to be precise, we had the so called '68 generation, named after the year of the largest student protests. It started out as a protest against Vietnam and many European governments supporting it, but it also broke up the encrusted structures of the postwar aera, religion among them.

Point is, it was a mixed bag of activists carrying that movement. Some, like one of the most charismatic leaders, the German Rudi Dutschke, were christians, but others were outspoken atheists. It still led to religion as well as authoritarian structures taking the backseat in Europe from then on.

Since you had a similar movement in the USA, I wonder what happened that it didn't have any lasting effect.

I'm no expert, since it was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if it was due to the Carter/Reagan transition here. A lot of people older than me keep harping about how America 'lost its way' and how the people 'were no longer proud to be Americans' during Carter's presidency. Reagan changed that, at least, among conservatives, and it seems like his reign is considered the new Golden Age. It's why almost all of the Tea Party types refer back to him in a reverent way. He's taken on an almost religious persona with them.

And since evangelicals have consistently become more powerful in the conservative bloc, they were able to withstand the anti-establishment movement of the sixties. Of course, the demographics are quickly shifting away from them, and they're becoming more shrill as they lose cultural ground, which only hastens their descent IMO.

There could also be a geographical element in play, too. The south has always been firmly entrenched.

Of course, I could (and probably am) be pull shit from my ass and hoping it makes sense. hrug:

[dyresand]

You know, I always keep wondering.

Here in Europe, in Western Europe to be precise, we had the so called '68 generation, named after the year of the largest student protests. It started out as a protest against Vietnam and many European governments supporting it, but it also broke up the encrusted structures of the postwar aera, religion among them.

Point is, it was a mixed bag of activists carrying that movement. Some, like one of the most charismatic leaders, the German Rudi Dutschke, were christians, but others were outspoken atheists. It still led to religion as well as authoritarian structures taking the backseat in Europe from then on.

Since you had a similar movement in the USA, I wonder what happened that it didn't have any lasting effect.

I'm no expert, since it was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if it was due to the Carter/Reagan transition here. A lot of people older than me keep harping about how America 'lost its way' and how the people 'were no longer proud to be Americans' during Carter's presidency. Reagan changed that, at least, among conservatives, and it seems like his reign is considered the new Golden Age. It's why almost all of the Tea Party types refer back to him in a reverent way. He's taken on an almost religious persona with them.

And since evangelicals have consistently become more powerful in the conservative bloc, they were able to withstand the anti-establishment movement of the sixties. Of course, the demographics are quickly shifting away from them, and they're becoming more shrill as they lose cultural ground, which only hastens their descent IMO.

There could also be a geographical element in play, too. The south has always been firmly entrenched.

Of course, I could (and probably am) be pull shit from my ass and hoping it makes sense. hrug:

But remember watergate.....

[abaris]

I'm no expert, since it was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if it was due to the Carter/Reagan transition here.

No, you might have a point.

I'm old enough to vaguely remember 68 and to fully remember the 70ies. Even when Nixon parked his ass in the oval office, American popular culture, such as movies, was pretty progressive. When Reagan came, the propaganda shit hit the fans. Such as Top Gun or Officer and Gentleman already jumping innocent bystanders in the early 80ies.

[KevinM1]

I'm no expert, since it was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if it was due to the Carter/Reagan transition here. A lot of people older than me keep harping about how America 'lost its way' and how the people 'were no longer proud to be Americans' during Carter's presidency. Reagan changed that, at least, among conservatives, and it seems like his reign is considered the new Golden Age. It's why almost all of the Tea Party types refer back to him in a reverent way. He's taken on an almost religious persona with them.

And since evangelicals have consistently become more powerful in the conservative bloc, they were able to withstand the anti-establishment movement of the sixties. Of course, the demographics are quickly shifting away from them, and they're becoming more shrill as they lose cultural ground, which only hastens their descent IMO.

There could also be a geographical element in play, too. The south has always been firmly entrenched.

Of course, I could (and probably am) be pull shit from my ass and hoping it makes sense. hrug:

But remember watergate.....

America, in general, was in a bit of a generational malaise IIRC (again, this was before my time... I was born in 1980). There was the anti-establishment movement, which brought about some change, but it never really shook society to its core. A lot of the problems that people rallied against still existed. Shit, they still exist (see: our mainstream news media barely mentioning the Colorado NAACP office that was bombed yesterday).

And it wasn't just Vietnam. IIRC, there was a gas shortage and some issues with drought, too. In addition to the Cold War in general and the hostage crisis that has come to punctuate Carter's presidency. And, like you say, Watergate.

Reagan, being the actor he was, played up two things - the tax payer as boss ("I payed for that microphone"), and nostalgia. He made people fondly remember the post-war, pre-Vietnam era, where things were 'great'. People remember it being like "Leave it to Beaver," and conveniently forget the rampant and violent racism and misogyny of the time. And that pastoral yearning fits religion like a glove. "Things were better, simpler when we believed in and acted like x."

And that lasted for about a generation (8 years of Reagan, 4 of Bush the First). Clinton was never really intentionally a transformative figure, culturally speaking. His infidelity gave ample ammunition for the Family Values crowd. Same with Hilary being more than a pretty face/arm candy. Some of the cultural inertia shifted, but that was due more to things like Ellen and The Real World (which was actually a great show in the early 90s), and hip hop/rap subculture gaining popularity in previously unheard of areas. Plus, shifting demographics in terms of minority populations.

Again, I could be missing the mark, but that's what I'm seeing. The political right in this country is desperate to go back to Saint Reagan's time. And since the religious right is in control there, it seems like it fits together.

For myself, the only thing I really miss of the 1980's was how NASA still seemed somewhat relevant.

[abaris]

For myself, the only thing I really miss of the 1980's was how NASA still seemed somewhat relevant.

But it was far more relevant in the early 70ies. They already pulled the financial plug well before the lunar programm was scheduled to be over.

[KevinM1]

For myself, the only thing I really miss of the 1980's was how NASA still seemed somewhat relevant.

But it was far more relevant in the early 70ies. They already pulled the financial plug well before the lunar programm was scheduled to be over.

True.

I'm really pulling for Space X and Planetary Resources. If private businesses can fulfill their promise, it might jumpstart our journey to the stars again. I'm not confident in NASA's Mars goal. Some Republican dickwad(s) is/are bound to put an end to it at some point. But, if there's a way to make money in the endeavor? That'll guarantee an increased presence in space.

[abaris]

I'm really pulling for Space X and Planetary Resources. If private businesses can fulfill their promise, it might jumpstart our journey to the stars again. I'm not confident in NASA's Mars goal. Some Republican dickwad(s) is/are bound to put an end to it at some point. But, if there's a way to make money in the endeavor? That'll guarantee an increased presence in space.

Private business will do what earns a profit. I'm putting my money on ESA, since the European nations won't pull the plug anytime soon.