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(January 30, 2015 at 2:14 pm)Esquilax Wrote: See, you say that, but I could introduce you to another christian here who believes that one is only a christian if they live a life in accordance with the bible's instructions; essentially, the exact opposite of what you claim here. How do we find out which of you is right?
That would be incorrect. Belief and acceptance of grace is the only requirement to be saved. Now practically speaking, if you believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be and accepted the grace offered, then you would want to strive to follow his other precepts.
Ah, good. So you sold all you owned and gave the proceeds to the poor? Very commendable.
(January 30, 2015 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: That would be incorrect. Belief and acceptance of grace is the only requirement to be saved. Now practically speaking, if you believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be and accepted the grace offered, then you would want to strive to follow his other precepts.
You have serious problems even considering the possibility that you might not believe exclusively true things, dude. Your answer here is seriously just "he's wrong, because the things I believe aren't what he's claiming."
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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(January 30, 2015 at 2:20 pm)SteveII Wrote: Perhaps you are struggling with the term "Bible". There are five written documents (gospels+acts). I chose to believe these accounts because they are describing actual events--not because they claim any special consideration (like inspiration) -- because they don't.
There is no evidence that these are actual events. Your Gospels and Acts are the claim, not the evidence.
Evidence for those claims must be external to the Gospels and Acts.
That does not make sense. If a fifth gospel was found, written by the apostle Andrew, an eyewitness to the events. Would The Gospel According to Andrew be a claim or evidence?
If Joe the Jew did the same but did not state he was a Christian, would that somehow change from a claim to evidence?
(January 30, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Chas Wrote: There is no evidence that these are actual events. Your Gospels and Acts are the claim, not the evidence.
Evidence for those claims must be external to the Gospels and Acts.
That does not make sense. If a fifth gospel was found, written by the apostle Andrew, an eyewitness to the events. Would The Gospel According to Andrew be a claim or evidence?
If Joe the Jew did the same but did not state he was a Christian, would that somehow change from a claim to evidence?
(January 30, 2015 at 2:32 pm)SteveII Wrote: That does not make sense. If a fifth gospel was found, written by the apostle Andrew, an eyewitness to the events. Would The Gospel According to Andrew be a claim or evidence?
It would be a claim, the same as the other four gospels. If I paid five people to say that I was god, would you believe them, or ask for something more? What if, when you asked for more evidence, I pushed one guy of my group of five and said the evidence is that he said I was god and he says true things? And when you asked why you should believe that one guy, I point to the other four and say that they agree with him and say true things too?
Would you believe I'm god, then? And if not, why would you believe the claims of four anonymous guys, concerning a person we can't even properly ascertain existed?
Quote:If Joe the Jew did the same but did not state he was a Christian, would that somehow change from a claim to evidence?
Nope.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
January 30, 2015 at 2:36 pm (This post was last modified: January 30, 2015 at 2:37 pm by Chas.)
(January 30, 2015 at 2:32 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(January 30, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Chas Wrote: There is no evidence that these are actual events. Your Gospels and Acts are the claim, not the evidence.
Evidence for those claims must be external to the Gospels and Acts.
That does not make sense. If a fifth gospel was found, written by the apostle Andrew, an eyewitness to the events. Would The Gospel According to Andrew be a claim or evidence?
If it could be proved that Andrew was an eyewitness (unlike the writers if the Gospels), then that would count as evidence where it agreed with the Gospels and Acts.
Quote:If Joe the Jew did the same but did not state he was a Christian, would that somehow change from a claim to evidence?
Again, if it could be proved that Joe was an eyewitness, then that would count as slightly stronger evidence as it would be considered less biased.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
(January 30, 2015 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: That would be incorrect. Belief and acceptance of grace is the only requirement to be saved. Now practically speaking, if you believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be and accepted the grace offered, then you would want to strive to follow his other precepts.
You have serious problems even considering the possibility that you might not believe exclusively true things, dude. Your answer here is seriously just "he's wrong, because the things I believe aren't what he's claiming."
January 30, 2015 at 2:37 pm (This post was last modified: January 30, 2015 at 2:38 pm by robvalue.)
I tell you what's weird, out of everyone who believes the bible is true, not one I have ever heard of chooses not to become a christian. Not a single one buys into the "magically true" myth without also buying the "good is good even when he is fucking you in the ass" myth. I said in another thread, if I honestly believed the bible is true, I would not become a christian. Has anyone ever heard of an anti-christian bible believing theist? Considering god's character is on borderline maximum evil settings, I realized today that this is surprising. I can only conclude that an awful lot of people are worshipping and adhering out of fear.
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