I've been really glad to find this forum as I have found the members to be intelligent, well-informed and educated. The ideas that get tossed around, and the strength of logic and reason in the thread conversations, are hard to find elsewhere. Ok, so enough ass kissing, I say that because this doesn't seem like a group that likes problems without answers and I want to hear some answers to our problems.
A lot of the threads and discussion either revolve around or come back to religious intolerance and violence, when they aren't focused on debunking supernatural theories, and we all recognize the danger that religion presents wherever it goes.
For thousands of years people of all sorts of faiths have warred with and killed each other for their differences in beliefs. Corrupt church members and dictators have used divine right to enslave and keep down generations for centuries at a time. Obsolete dogmas have held back and violently punished any kind of scientific discovery that contradicts their texts.
Today the problems are pronounced, and it’s fairly obviously pissed a lot of us off! In the middle east Jews war with Muslims, Muslims war within themselves. In Ireland, Catholics and Protestants have been bombing each other for decades. In the US people have been and still are persecuted and ostracized for their belief or unbelief. Catholic stances on birth control and abortion are propagating the spread of AIDS through the world, and the power of the church has the power to abuse thousands of children with impunity. Moral stances based on illogical social norms criminalize victimless crimes and imprison millions disproportionately.
Religion causes people to stop thinking, to allow their assumptions to be faulty, illogical, and circular. Relying on faith stunts a person’s ability to question because that person has already made a conscious choice not to question critically and remain open minded to the most fundamental issues that perplex every single individual.
This is NOT a necessary state for humanity to live in. The knowledge is available and accessible, the reasoning ability exists, the technology and funding exist, to transform the global crises into a manageable solution.
But you know all that…
So my question is, what can we do about it? Is the gradual growth of non-religious people and the rise of foundations focused on the spread of reason and logic enough?
Is it possible to create a fully separate church and state? Is it plausible to believe that people will allow their government to act in a perfectly secular way that still allows people to practice their independent beliefs? How can that be reconciled with the requirement of many religions to proselytize?
The spread of logic and reason, as is being done by people like Dawkins and Harris, is a great start. But these groups appeal to a niche, most people who listen to them already agree or are only looking to start an argument. We have seen time and time again the hostility and ignorance so many theists approach the atheist community with and know how effective it is to argue against their beliefs.
The point of this thread is to start a conversation on what we, as individuals, a community, and citizens of a variety of nations can do to reduce the negative impacts of religion that we see around us.
As I said before, the spread of logic and reason is a great start, and I am of the position this is the foundation of secular development. The educational system would be an obvious target to reform, but I don’t think we could start there; the schools are created and administered by political and corporate interests that would crush that type of shock to the system.
I think there are more of the logical and reasonable people out there than we suspect. I think that most of these people are less active in public policy and less interested/enthusiastic about politics than religious or uneducated people. We need to motivate the logical and reasonable among us to speak out more often, become more politically active, and publicize the critical and real arguments for subjects of debate within this country. We need to get the word out that individual, personal morality is no way to decide civil discourse and administration. This is like what Dawkins and Harris do, but we as individuals and grassroots community members have access to a larger cross section of the population and are viewed with less anger than the most public figures.
So that’s what I think needs to be done, I have a few ideas on how to do it if that seems right, but what do you all think?
Am I overreacting? Is there a better approach; is any approach possible and workable?
I am so frustrated by the acts and history of religious institutions that I can barely stop myself from screaming at pastors I see on busses sometimes. This can’t be the only way the world can work, and there has to be a path from here to there. I don’t care what policies or politics might take place (well, I have my preferences but I’m ok with losing), I simply want our world to discuss things like adults; rational, reasonable, skeptical, adults.
A lot of the threads and discussion either revolve around or come back to religious intolerance and violence, when they aren't focused on debunking supernatural theories, and we all recognize the danger that religion presents wherever it goes.
For thousands of years people of all sorts of faiths have warred with and killed each other for their differences in beliefs. Corrupt church members and dictators have used divine right to enslave and keep down generations for centuries at a time. Obsolete dogmas have held back and violently punished any kind of scientific discovery that contradicts their texts.
Today the problems are pronounced, and it’s fairly obviously pissed a lot of us off! In the middle east Jews war with Muslims, Muslims war within themselves. In Ireland, Catholics and Protestants have been bombing each other for decades. In the US people have been and still are persecuted and ostracized for their belief or unbelief. Catholic stances on birth control and abortion are propagating the spread of AIDS through the world, and the power of the church has the power to abuse thousands of children with impunity. Moral stances based on illogical social norms criminalize victimless crimes and imprison millions disproportionately.
Religion causes people to stop thinking, to allow their assumptions to be faulty, illogical, and circular. Relying on faith stunts a person’s ability to question because that person has already made a conscious choice not to question critically and remain open minded to the most fundamental issues that perplex every single individual.
This is NOT a necessary state for humanity to live in. The knowledge is available and accessible, the reasoning ability exists, the technology and funding exist, to transform the global crises into a manageable solution.
But you know all that…
So my question is, what can we do about it? Is the gradual growth of non-religious people and the rise of foundations focused on the spread of reason and logic enough?
Is it possible to create a fully separate church and state? Is it plausible to believe that people will allow their government to act in a perfectly secular way that still allows people to practice their independent beliefs? How can that be reconciled with the requirement of many religions to proselytize?
The spread of logic and reason, as is being done by people like Dawkins and Harris, is a great start. But these groups appeal to a niche, most people who listen to them already agree or are only looking to start an argument. We have seen time and time again the hostility and ignorance so many theists approach the atheist community with and know how effective it is to argue against their beliefs.
The point of this thread is to start a conversation on what we, as individuals, a community, and citizens of a variety of nations can do to reduce the negative impacts of religion that we see around us.
As I said before, the spread of logic and reason is a great start, and I am of the position this is the foundation of secular development. The educational system would be an obvious target to reform, but I don’t think we could start there; the schools are created and administered by political and corporate interests that would crush that type of shock to the system.
I think there are more of the logical and reasonable people out there than we suspect. I think that most of these people are less active in public policy and less interested/enthusiastic about politics than religious or uneducated people. We need to motivate the logical and reasonable among us to speak out more often, become more politically active, and publicize the critical and real arguments for subjects of debate within this country. We need to get the word out that individual, personal morality is no way to decide civil discourse and administration. This is like what Dawkins and Harris do, but we as individuals and grassroots community members have access to a larger cross section of the population and are viewed with less anger than the most public figures.
So that’s what I think needs to be done, I have a few ideas on how to do it if that seems right, but what do you all think?
Am I overreacting? Is there a better approach; is any approach possible and workable?
I am so frustrated by the acts and history of religious institutions that I can barely stop myself from screaming at pastors I see on busses sometimes. This can’t be the only way the world can work, and there has to be a path from here to there. I don’t care what policies or politics might take place (well, I have my preferences but I’m ok with losing), I simply want our world to discuss things like adults; rational, reasonable, skeptical, adults.
My religion is the understanding of my world. My god is the energy that underlies it all. My worship is my constant endeavor to unravel the mysteries of my religion. 
). But for the most part very religious people are distrustful of scientific ideas, methods and conclusions.
