Nature's Laws

[Freedom4me]

If you're just going to presuppose a god exists, in order to justify your belief in moral absolutes, in order to justify your belief in the supernatural, in order to justify your belief in god, then we're done here, because that is a perfect circle and you'd do better to just stop wasting our time and use the simplified version: "I believe god exists because I believe god exists."

You need to stop asserting and start demonstrating, because a chain of things you believe is not going to convince anybody. You can't say you believe X thing because you also believe Y thing, when neither of those things has any evidence behind them; you can't cover for one claim with another claim.

Do you believe that there is injustice anywhere?  If so, then it follows that justice exists somewhere.  Is there darkness somewhere?  Then light exists.  Are lies ever told?  Then truth must exist too.  In Romans Chapter one, the apostle Paul says:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
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Because of our fallen, sinful, dead nature (post fall) the human capacity for self-deception is limitless.  But by God's grace, the Holy Spirit gave life to my dead soul and made me receptive to His word.  I was beyond prideful.  I loved arguing with Christians, insulting their faith, and demonstrating the infinite superiority of reason over faith.  But God brought me to a point at which it required more faith to remain atheist than to admit what had always been obvious enough through the kind of world that God has made.  

[robvalue]

It sounds to me, freedom, that you have designed a metaphor that encapsulates all the things you find most important. They're bound together and given form as a "God".

That's the thing, you see. God represents to everyone what they think is important, what they think is right and wrong, and so on. God agrees with everyone. Yet people don't agree with each other. So either everyone has their own distinct God, or God behaves differently to everyone, or these gods exist only in the imagination.

[Freedom4me]

This one jumped off the deep end really quick.

I find it desperately hard to believe that you were ever an atheist. Methinks you conflate atheism with simply being a person who is not actively practicing a religion.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here.  In your opinion, what advantage could possibly be gained for me by actively practicing a religion?  If religion was what had turned me off in such a foul manner, what you seem to be saying here makes nonsense out of my story.  Now I'm not saying that you have to believe in God, I'm just telling you that my story isn't that uncommon or hard to believe.  

[Cyberman]

That's not what Steel was saying.

[FatAndFaithless]

Repeating bible verses and flat assertions about the nature of God and our sinful characters isn't doing anything to answer the objection which have been posed to you.

[Freedom4me]

Repeating bible verses and flat assertions about the nature of God and our sinful characters isn't doing anything to answer the objection which have been posed to you.

The objections tend to take one of several forms:

1. I hate your god and his morality.
2. You have no evidence for your god's existence.
3. We can explain all of "reality" quite sufficiently without any gods.

There isn't much I can do to address number 1, so I'll try to stay focused on 2 and 3.

[FatAndFaithless]

Repeating bible verses and flat assertions about the nature of God and our sinful characters isn't doing anything to answer the objection which have been posed to you.

The objections tend to take one of several forms:

1. I hate your god and his morality.
2. You have no evidence for your god's existence.
3. We can explain all of "reality" quite sufficiently without any gods.

There isn't much I can do to address number 1, so I'll try to stay focused on 2 and 3.

1. What a terrible strawman of the objection.
2. Accurate.
3. Another terrible strawman...nobody here claims we can explain everything in reality. The point is that we have no reason to use anything supernatural in any explanation. Especially if the supernatural idea to which is being appealed hasn't been confirmed to exist.

[robvalue]

Have you read the bible freedom? I mean, properly from start to finish? Because the character you describe appears to bear no resemblance to the biblical God.

[Freedom4me]

Have you read the bible freedom? I mean, properly from start to finish? Because the character you describe appears to bear no resemblance to the biblical God.

Yes I've read all of it.  And I don't claim to be someone who has the ability to infallibly interpret it.  I have a Catholic friend who is absolutely convinced that the pope truly does have some sort of infallible bible teaching authority.  He loves his religion but I'm not sure that he loves his God.  In this regard he is like a political party loyalist.  There are Republicans out there who's loyalty to the Republican party vastly exceeds their loyalty to their country, the constitution, etc.  In the Democrat party such loyalists exist also.  I have never understood any of that.

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The objections tend to take one of several forms:

1. I hate your god and his morality.
2. You have no evidence for your god's existence.
3. We can explain all of "reality" quite sufficiently without any gods.

There isn't much I can do to address number 1, so I'll try to stay focused on 2 and 3.

1. What a terrible strawman of the objection.  
2.  Accurate.
3. Another terrible strawman...nobody here claims we can explain everything in reality.  The point is that we have no reason to use anything supernatural in any explanation.  Especially if the supernatural idea to which is being appealed hasn't been confirmed to exist.

Does Darwinism help the 'atheist side' demonstrate that no gods are necessary to account for complex things such as animals?  It seems to me that the supernatural is generally invoked when the science is still rather lacking.  It's like the god-of-the-gaps thing, except that IMO the gaps dominate.  There is VASTLY more that we don't know than what we do know.

[Esquilax]

Do you believe that there is injustice anywhere?  If so, then it follows that justice exists somewhere.  Is there darkness somewhere?  Then light exists.  Are lies ever told?  Then truth must exist too.  In Romans Chapter one, the apostle Paul says:

None of those things require a god, let alone the specific christian one you're appealing to. Truth is merely a concept for that which corresponds most closely to objective reality, and lies are the antonym of that. Justice is similarly conceptual, denoting our sense of fairness, and injustice is merely another antonym. They don't exist objectively, they are highly context-driven conceptual elements of reality. If you're going to argue that these things come from god, you cannot do that by asserting that they're absolute, asserting that absolutes can only come about supernaturally, and asserting that god is the arbiter of them. The fact that you believe those things is not evidence that they're true, and you have not given anyone else reason to believe as you do, just because you say they are so.

The same is true of bible verses, by the way; that's why I'll just be ignoring the one you posted. It's not true just because the bible says so, either.

Because of our fallen, sinful, dead nature (post fall) the human capacity for self-deception is limitless.  But by God's grace, the Holy Spirit gave life to my dead soul and made me receptive to His word.  I was beyond prideful.  I loved arguing with Christians, insulting their faith, and demonstrating the infinite superiority of reason over faith.  But God brought me to a point at which it required more faith to remain atheist than to admit what had always been obvious enough through the kind of world that God has made.  

Please don't poison the well.