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Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:21 pm
Hello everyone! I'm a new member to AF. First, a tiny introductory note just to let you know a little about me. I was an atheist from about age 15 to 27. I came from a very strict baptist family background, and I guess you could say that I was somewhat oppressed by my strict religious upbringing. So I rebelled against my parents, my religion, and God. At the age of 27, one of my friends loaned me a book called "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. That book changed my views completely. Since then I've seen lots of additional reasons to believe in the God of the bible.
The universe is orderly and purposeful in certain ways. How could impersonal stuff like matter and energy "obey" laws of any kind? Where do the laws of nature and the laws of logic come from? If there is no god, why do so many atheists care so much about the non-existence of a supposedly fictional deity? Please don't take any offense to my words. I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just asking a few questions that seem to be fair.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Welcome.
Though, if your entry argument to the forum is just a giant argument from ignorance, you're gonna have to up your game.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:27 pm
You still have like 10 feet of a mental leap you need filled before we can start talking bout some god
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:29 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 2:32 pm by robvalue.)
Hello welcome to the forum 
How could impersonal stuff like matter and energy "obey" laws of any kind?
This is assigning agency to things that aren't making any decisions. They aren't obeying because they're not thinking. It's more accurate to say they follow the laws. We describe how the universe works, we can't ever know exactly why things are the way they are.
Where do the laws of nature and the laws of logic come from?
We don't know. Just making up an answer and requiring someone prove you wrong is the argument from ignorance fallacy. You still need positive evidence for your claim.
If there is no god, why do so many atheists care so much about the non-existence of a supposedly fictional deity?
Most atheists don't claim there is no god, they claim there isn't good enough reason to think that there is a god.
Please watch this for a full answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wguAQHWVcZY
No offense taken
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:32 pm
Sounds a bit trollish doesn't it? He rebelled against his strictly religious parents? Isn't that what the more ignorant theists say about us? Anyway, welcome, start a new thread and we can discuss any issues you would like to talk about.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:52 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 2:56 pm by Simon Moon.)
(May 15, 2015 at 2:21 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Hello everyone! I'm a new member to AF. First, a tiny introductory note just to let you know a little about me. I was an atheist from about age 15 to 27. I came from a very strict baptist family background, and I guess you could say that I was somewhat oppressed by my strict religious upbringing. So I rebelled against my parents, my religion, and God. At the age of 27, one of my friends loaned me a book called "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. That book changed my views completely. Since then I've seen lots of additional reasons to believe in the God of the bible.
Welcome aboard.
Not to sound insulting, but if you were convinced by Josh McDowell, you do not have the best critical thinking skills.
His books (a theist relative convinced me to read them), are loaded with fallacious arguments.
Quote:The universe is orderly and purposeful in certain ways. How could impersonal stuff like matter and energy "obey" laws of any kind? Where do the laws of nature and the laws of logic come from? If there is no god, why do so many atheists care so much about the non-existence of a supposedly fictional deity? Please don't take any offense to my words. I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just asking a few questions that seem to be fair.
The laws you mention are descriptive, not prescriptive. The universe just works the way it does, we observe that behavior and use laws to describe its behavior.
The laws of nature don't come from anywhere, in the sense you are speaking of, they are attributes of our universe. It's like you are asking, "where does the ability of a cup to hold fluid come from?". It comes from the attributes of being a cup. There is no extra 'thing' that the cup needs from another source to hold fluid.
I don't care about a non-existent deity. I care how belief in that deity effects the world I live in, People's beliefs don't live in a vacuum, they have real, negative effects on the planet. Wars are started, pseudoscience is taught in schools, planes are flown into buildings, minorities are persecuted, laws are passed based on scriptural morality, genocides are perpetrated, all in the name of one god or another.
As already mentioned, your entire argument is based on the 'argument from ignorance' fallacy. In other words, just because some questions, like the origin of the universe, are not currently completely answered, does not mean your contention that a god is responsible becomes any more viable.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:57 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 2:29 pm)robvalue Wrote: Hello welcome to the forum
How could impersonal stuff like matter and energy "obey" laws of any kind?
This is assigning agency to things that aren't making any decisions. They aren't obeying because they're not thinking. It's more accurate to say they follow the laws. We describe how the universe works, we can't ever know exactly why things are the way they are.
Where do the laws of nature and the laws of logic come from?
We don't know. Just making up an answer and requiring someone prove you wrong is the argument from ignorance fallacy. You still need positive evidence for your claim.
If there is no god, why do so many atheists care so much about the non-existence of a supposedly fictional deity?
Most atheists don't claim there is no god, they claim there isn't good enough reason to think that there is a god.
Please watch this for a full answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wguAQHWVcZY
No offense taken
I agree. We really don't know why it is that the stuff of nature has to follow the laws of nature. But it seems to me that nature is more than law-like; it is also purposeful. In some way, it seems imaginable that a universe could conceivably exist without any discernible order or purpose. Of course in such a universe, there would be no creatures around to notice the lack of order and purpose.
I liked the video. And I agree with you that we all ought to care about oppressive people, oppressive governments, etc. Religions are quite often just another powerful means by which to control people. I've experienced it myself countless times. The protection of individual rights is a never-ending battle and the stakes are high. Where do our individual rights come from?
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 2:59 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 3:06 pm by robvalue.)
As Simon said, books like the one you talked about are really horrible. They are just dishonesty wrapped up in cotton wool. They prey on people who aren't familiar with logical fallacies. If you are interested in delving further into why this is, here is a great video series taking the book apart. Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni9k0FQTH7U
I don't know what makes you think the universe is purposeful. Why do you say that? Just because we exist, it doesn't mean we have an objective purpose. A purpose is something a thinking agency has decided upon. There is no evidence anything in the universe was "designed for a purpose" by anything. In fact, the Earth is going to end one day, and the whole universe will die a heat death. Sounds pretty un-purposeful if anything.
Where do our rights come from? We grant them to each other, we decide what is fair and what isn't. We decide as a society. Rights have evolved as societies have grown and (hopefully) improved.
A right doesn't mean anything if no one at all respects it; it must be an agreement.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Freedom, even if every question you can think of asking can only be answered by "We don't know", you would still have no reason to postulate a god. And saying 'it seems likely' or 'it makes sense to me' or 'it's imaginable' is not any form of evidence.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 3:08 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 3:00 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Freedom, even if every question you can think of asking can only be answered by "We don't know", you would still have no reason to postulate a god. And saying 'it seems likely' or 'it makes sense to me' or 'it's imaginable' is not any form of evidence.
I agree.
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