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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:01 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 8:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No personal theory need be applied. It's special pleading. It doesn't work.
(you're in a thread about arguments for the existence of god...........)
You are correct, my apologies.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:07 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 8:12 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Just to toss you a bone......there's no reason to think that the supernatural being would be bound by natural law - that's why our system of logic is untrustworthy "there" in the first place. The notion that a supernatural being would be bound by natural law, is, itself......pretty much untrue by definition. If it were true...it would just be a "natural being", eh?
If you believe in supernatural beings...the idea that they are not bound by natural law is a fairly rational belief to hold -about- supernatural beings. After all, you're only repeating their defining attribute as distinct from natural beings.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:09 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Iroscato Wrote: And yet again we run into the same wall - where did this creator come from? If a complex object such as the universe could only have been designed, where the hell did the infinitely more complex and powerful creator come from? All answers I've ever seen for this boil down to "oh, well god exists outside of reality so he's exempt".
Muleshit. A creator should always be the LAST option considered by a theory, after every possible alternative has been thoroughly and exhaustively debunked. Anything less is a grave betrayal of the power of the human mind.
Hi Iroscato. That's a fair point.
To believe in God is to believe that He is a supernatural being. Everything in nature came from something. The supernatural, though, is not bound by the laws of nature.
What are your personal theories regarding this, btw?
The first line of that reply actually made me say "holy shit!" out loud, aaaand then you made the exact same tired-out old mantra that I've seen countless times already. Props for acknowledging my argument to a degree, however.
As for my personal theory...THAT...would take a much longer post than I can muster up the energy to type out at 1AM on my phone. Perhaps tomorrow.
And I'm hardly an expert in the field of cosmology, space enthusiast though I may be. 
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:15 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 8:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You don't have to be an expert in cosmology. The process which leads us to state that "all things must have a cause" or "stuff can't come from nothing" can only be held confidently to be true in this state of the universe, as it is, as we perceive it's interactions. All of -that- only goes as far back as the big bang. Before the big bang there could have been different physics...there could have been different -logic-. Perhaps stuff -couldn't- come from nothing in a hypothetical "before the big bang" if that phrase even makes sense......but we have no way of knowing that, and the reverse could just as easily be true.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 8:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Just to toss you a bone......there's no reason to think that the supernatural being would be bound by natural law - that's why our system of logic is untrustworthy "there" in the first place. The notion that a supernatural being would be bound by natural law, is, itself......pretty much untrue by definition. If it were true...it would just be a "natural being", eh?
If you believe in supernatural beings...the idea that they are not bound by natural law is a fairly rational belief to hold -about- supernatural beings. After all, you're only repeating their defining attribute as distinct from natural beings.
Agreed.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:21 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 8:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You don't have to be an expert in cosmology. The process which leads us to state that "all things must have a cause" or "stuff can't come from nothing" can only be held confidently to be true in this state of the universe, as it is, as we perceive it's interactions now. All of -that- only goes as far back as the big bang. Before the big bang there could have been different physics...there could have been different -logic-. Perhaps stuff -couldn't- come from nothing in a hypothetical "before the big bang" if that phrase even makes sense......but we have no way of knowing that, and the reverse could just as easily be true. It's not strong enough a statement to lead, inexorably, to truth.
Well said. I'm tempted to say the laws of physics are the same in any universe - but I don't because such knowledge is currently far beyond human understanding, and perhaps always will be, confined as we are to this single cosmos.
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:25 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 8:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The shorter answer...specific to the god plug, is that even if we -accept- those statements to be true for the sake of argumentation (regardless of their -actual- truth value)..... if all things require a cause, if "stuff" can't come from nothing.....then this all had a -cause-.....and stuff came from -something-. Those are the only conclusions that either statement leads to, if true.
"Cause" =/= "God", and "Something" =/= "God"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:25 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 8:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You don't have to be an expert in cosmology. The process which leads us to state that "all things must have a cause" or "stuff can't come from nothing" can only be held confidently to be true in this state of the universe, as it is, as we perceive it's interactions. All of -that- only goes as far back as the big bang. Before the big bang there could have been different physics...there could have been different -logic-. Perhaps stuff -couldn't- come from nothing in a hypothetical "before the big bang" if that phrase even makes sense......but we have no way of knowing that, and the reverse could just as easily be true.
Does this mean I can say a god could have existed before the big bang, with different laws and nature? 
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:29 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 8:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Nothing can stop you from saying it, but you won't be able to competently argue it's truth value....lol. Isn't that where we find ourselves with the god idea, in any case (though, granted, your scenario assumes less burden.....as it makes no statement about gods in the current state of the universe...)?
I would simply agree with you and say..yes, if things were different, things could be different. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 18, 2015 at 8:38 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 8:21 pm)Iroscato Wrote: Well said. I'm tempted to say the laws of physics are the same in any universe - but I don't because such knowledge is currently far beyond human understanding, and perhaps always will be, confined as we are to this single cosmos.
I see no reason that 'all universes' should not follow the same rules. Whatever the origin, it would have 'laws' also and would not generate anything different. Even if there were a god, it would be defined by a set of 'laws' allowing its existence. If there were a god and it were truly omnipotent, it should have been able to 'create' this universe without quarks, muons, etc.. As it did not, and if there were a god, obviously it was constrained within the parameters of its existence.
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