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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 6:35 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 5:28 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 1:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, we do not believe that the bible is infallible. 
Yes, it is the inspired word of God written through the filter of man, not written by the hand of God Himself.
Us Catholics believe that the Church is the main pillar of Truth, not the bible. Unlike other Christians, we are not Sola Scriptura. The Church existed before the bible did anyhow.
Randy keeps telling us the buy-bull is inerrant. Isn't that a cathy-lick tradition or is Randy making shit up?
Hi Warrior, this has been discussed in full in the past 3 or 4 pages of this thread. I invite you to take a look! 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 7:45 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 5:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(July 12, 2015 at 5:09 pm)dyresand Wrote: A rough estimate a little less than (being generous) 2.5% of the worlds population would be going to heaven. Those figures are as is.
Most of humanity would go to hell during the end times when such a minor percentage would go to heaven. That being said even
with people being born and dying every day you have to take that into account only a given 1% out of those people born are destined
to heaven while the ones who are dying are again 1%. It is really hinted by Paul that not everyone is getting into heaven and that god
created people that are noble being those who are apart of the 1% to get into heaven and the others... simply fillers that are going to hell
even if they go to jesus that won't change their outcome. The next part even if someone were to kill themselves granting that god of the bible exists
all that said person would be doing would be going to hell instead of god putting him there.
Where do these numbers come from?
For the record, they do not represent my beliefs regarding souls going to Heaven vs Hell.
The given ratio that for instance if christianity is the on true religion and all other are doomed to hell.
1. It's such a small percentage because only 1 sect would be closer to the original interpretation of gods word.
2. All non christians or the ones that never heard about him add them into going to hell as well.
3. Even if you give your life over to jesus the choice already has been made - reason behind it
god of the bible is pre-deterministic and if you were to do something that isn't planned for you to do
like the fact god messed with the pharaohs free will in letting gods people go.
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 7:49 pm
Not all of Christ's commands are as fuzzy-wuzzy as you'd like to think. Following those requires cherry-picking just like following any part of the bible does.
How about when he commands his disciples to bring non-believers before him to be slain? The command to leave your family and all your earthly possessions, and also to hate your whole family? Then there's his actions...I'm still toying with the idea of disrupting bingo night at somebody's church by going through cracking a whip and flipping tables, shooting about how they've turned Gaud' s house into a den of gambling and shame.
Point being: JZ Christie isn't quite the nice guy your kids' Sunday school class would have you believe. Some of his commands wouldn't get you into MY heaven, that's for sure.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 7:52 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:45 pm)dyresand Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 5:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
Where do these numbers come from?
For the record, they do not represent my beliefs regarding souls going to Heaven vs Hell.
The given ratio that for instance if christianity is the on true religion and all other are doomed to hell.
1. It's such a small percentage because only 1 sect would be closer to the original interpretation of gods word.
2. All non christians or the ones that never heard about him add them into going to hell as well.
3. Even if you give your life over to jesus the choice already has been made - reason behind it
god of the bible is pre-deterministic and if you were to do something that isn't planned for you to do
like the fact god messed with the pharaohs free will in letting gods people go.
Those numbers are all assuming you actually believe that that's how it works and that everyone who is not a Christian is automatically going to Hell no matter what.
....Which I definitely do not. Your point #3 isn't even something I've ever heard of. 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 7:56 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 7:45 pm)dyresand Wrote: The given ratio that for instance if christianity is the on true religion and all other are doomed to hell.
1. It's such a small percentage because only 1 sect would be closer to the original interpretation of gods word.
2. All non christians or the ones that never heard about him add them into going to hell as well.
3. Even if you give your life over to jesus the choice already has been made - reason behind it
god of the bible is pre-deterministic and if you were to do something that isn't planned for you to do
like the fact god messed with the pharaohs free will in letting gods people go.
Those numbers are all assuming you actually believe that that's how it works and that everyone who is not a Christian is automatically going to Hell no matter what.
....Which I definitely do not. Your point #3 isn't even something I've ever heard of.
He's referring to a Calvinist doctrine called Predestination. Calvin was an early protestant, so I don't expect you to be familiar with his teachings unless you went out of your way to learn about him. I was a Presbyterian, which is a Calvinist denomination, which might be the only reason I've heard of him.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 7:58 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 7:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Those numbers are all assuming you actually believe that that's how it works and that everyone who is not a Christian is automatically going to Hell no matter what.
....Which I definitely do not. Your point #3 isn't even something I've ever heard of.
He's referring to a Calvinist doctrine called Predestination. Calvin was an early protestant, so I don't expect you to be familiar with his teachings unless you went out of your way to learn about him. I was a Presbyterian, which is a Calvinist denomination, which might be the only reason I've heard of him.
Oh yes, John Calvin. I am familiar. I really don't think most denominations fall under this category though.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: He's referring to a Calvinist doctrine called Predestination. Calvin was an early protestant, so I don't expect you to be familiar with his teachings unless you went out of your way to learn about him. I was a Presbyterian, which is a Calvinist denomination, which might be the only reason I've heard of him.
Oh yes, John Calvin. I am familiar. I really don't think most denominations fall under this category though.
It's increasingly rare these days because it doesn't sit well with free will doctrine and isn't considered particularly progressive
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 8:18 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 7:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Those numbers are all assuming you actually believe that that's how it works and that everyone who is not a Christian is automatically going to Hell no matter what.
....Which I definitely do not. Your point #3 isn't even something I've ever heard of.
He's referring to a Calvinist doctrine called Predestination. Calvin was an early protestant, so I don't expect you to be familiar with his teachings unless you went out of your way to learn about him. I was a Presbyterian, which is a Calvinist denomination, which might be the only reason I've heard of him.
The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
source http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 8:25 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Oh yes, John Calvin. I am familiar. I really don't think most denominations fall under this category though.
It's increasingly rare these days because it doesn't sit well with free will doctrine and isn't considered particularly progressive
Yeah it makes absolutely 0 sense to me. But hey, to each their own I guess.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 8:32 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 5:28 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: Randy keeps telling us the buy-bull is inerrant. Isn't that a cathy-lick tradition or is Randy making shit up?
Hi Warrior, this has been discussed in full in the past 3 or 4 pages of this thread. I invite you to take a look!
Yep, I read all that word twisting. Obviously, after I posted this.
I also note you left my other question completely unanswered.
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