Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:14 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 4:18 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(July 12, 2015 at 3:39 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:
Alright, so since Randy chickened out and won't be rescuing you any more (at least not from me), I guess I have to kick the question back to you, CL. How do your beliefs differ from Revelation? You're welcome to ignore me like Randy did if you don't like my tone and/or don't wish to answer any more hard questions.
Oh ok, lol. I don't like your tone, but don't believe in putting people on my ignore list. 
Here's some paraphrasing:
My beliefs are that when Jesus comes, death will cease to exist. The souls of the people who have died will rise and be reunited with their bodies. And we will all have transformed, spiritual bodies. At this time, the final judgement will occur. Here, each person will have to account for his conduct and the deepest secrets of his soul will come to light. How well each person has responded to the prompting of God's grace will be made clear. Our attitude and actions toward our neighbor will reflect how well we have loved our Lord (basically, we can best love God by loving others).
This next part from the Catechism I will leave as is because it is important: "By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love."
^So those who have done right will rise to life, and the evildoers who reject love and grace and who have no remorse rise to be damned.
.....This is pretty much the same overall message in Revelations, but without taking all the metaphorical language as any sort of literal truth, which is how you were presenting it.
Source, if interested: https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm
(July 12, 2015 at 4:05 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 3:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, my beliefs are that of the Catholic Church, since I am Catholic. But ok, seems like you are not interested in knowing. Fair enough.
I guess you didn't read the rest, huh? I notice you're pretty selective about what parts of my posts you'll respond to.
Like I said, I was gonna ask Randy what you believe, but he's not talking to me any more because I hurt his feel-bads. So now I'm asking you. What do you believe about the end times? I'm not asking for a simple "I believe what Catholics believe," and I don't particularly want to see a link. I'd like you to answer the question. You certainly do not have to if you cannot our do not wish to.
Sorry, I responded to that first part, went to the bathroom, and then came back and read the rest. Above is my response. My apologies.
(July 12, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 3:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, my beliefs are that of the Catholic Church, since I am Catholic. But ok, seems like you are not interested in knowing. Fair enough.
Here's an overview from the USCCB: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0
Another wonderful source, thank you.
Redbeard:
This is an important thing to see in regards to our beliefs about Revelations. As I told you in my response, we believe it is covered in symbolism. Here is proof to show I am not making that up:
"The Apocalypse, or Revelation to John, the last book of the Bible, is one of the most difficult to understand because it abounds in unfamiliar and extravagant symbolism, which at best appears unusual to the modern reader. Symbolic language, however, is one of the chief characteristics of apocalyptic literature, of which this book is an outstanding example." - From the US Catholic Bishops
Source: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 1382
Threads: 5
Joined: June 30, 2015
Reputation:
39
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:18 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 3:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, my beliefs are that of the Catholic Church, since I am Catholic. But ok, seems like you are not interested in knowing. Fair enough.
Here's an overview from the USCCB: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0
why thank you, Randy. I knew I could count on you to shield CL from the question.
Unfortunately, that link isn't terribly helpful to the discussion. It insists Revelation is not literal, but it doesn't provide much insight into what they think is actually going to happen during end times, nor how the actual end times will be any less brutal than what's depicted. The simple fact seems to remain that if you and/or CL are claiming that Christ's second coming will not entail damnation for most of humanity, this is an even more baseless assertion than usual because it isn't even backed by scripture.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:20 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Here's an overview from the USCCB: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0
why thank you, Randy. I knew I could count on you to shield CL from the question.
Unfortunately, that link isn't terribly helpful to the discussion. It insists Revelation is not literal, but it doesn't provide much insight into what they think is actually going to happen during end times, nor how the actual end times will be any less brutal than what's depicted. The simple fact seems to remain that if you and/or CL are claiming that Christ's second coming will not entail damnation for most of humanity, this is an even more baseless assertion than usual because it isn't even backed by scripture.
I responded before I even saw Randy's post lol. Check it out!
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 1382
Threads: 5
Joined: June 30, 2015
Reputation:
39
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:22 pm
Oh, I see your answers now CL. thank you for continuing the discussion in spite of my language. I'm really just not a nice person.
My answer to Randy still stands, and honestly, your scenario is still pretty damning for most humans.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(July 12, 2015 at 4:22 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Oh, I see your answers now CL. thank you for continuing the discussion in spite of my language. I'm really just not a nice person.
My answer to Randy still stands, and honestly, your scenario is still pretty damning for most humans.
No problem!
I really don't believe most humans will be damned, but that's just a matter of opinion, since none of us really know for sure.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 1382
Threads: 5
Joined: June 30, 2015
Reputation:
39
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 4:49 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 4:22 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Oh, I see your answers now CL. thank you for continuing the discussion in spite of my language. I'm really just not a nice person.
My answer to Randy still stands, and honestly, your scenario is still pretty damning for most humans.
No problem!
I really don't believe most humans will be damned, but that's just a matter of opinion, since none of us really know for sure.
If the math in Revelation is any indication, most humans will certainly be damned forever when this happens. I think it would be hard to argue that this would not be the case, even with avery broad interpretation. The qestion isn't about the intended end of time, though it's about whether you would push a button to make that happen right now. As it stands, the second coming will damn over 70% of currently existing humans, and that's only of you assume that none of the pale calling themselves Christian Get left behind. Jesus himself says that not everybody that calls him Lord will be saved in the end, so really the number is probably higher.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 5:09 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 4:22 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Oh, I see your answers now CL. thank you for continuing the discussion in spite of my language. I'm really just not a nice person.
My answer to Randy still stands, and honestly, your scenario is still pretty damning for most humans.
No problem!
I really don't believe most humans will be damned, but that's just a matter of opinion, since none of us really know for sure. A rough estimate a little less than (being generous) 2.5% of the worlds population would be going to heaven. Those figures are as is.
Most of humanity would go to hell during the end times when such a minor percentage would go to heaven. That being said even
with people being born and dying every day you have to take that into account only a given 1% out of those people born are destined
to heaven while the ones who are dying are again 1%. It is really hinted by Paul that not everyone is getting into heaven and that god
created people that are noble being those who are apart of the 1% to get into heaven and the others... simply fillers that are going to hell
even if they go to jesus that won't change their outcome. The next part even if someone were to kill themselves granting that god of the bible exists
all that said person would be doing would be going to hell instead of god putting him there.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 5:18 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 5:20 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(July 12, 2015 at 4:49 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No problem!
I really don't believe most humans will be damned, but that's just a matter of opinion, since none of us really know for sure.
If the math in Revelation is any indication, most humans will certainly be damned forever when this happens. I think it would be hard to argue that this would not be the case, even with avery broad interpretation. The qestion isn't about the intended end of time, though it's about whether you would push a button to make that happen right now. As it stands, the second coming will damn over 70% of currently existing humans, and that's only of you assume that none of the pale calling themselves Christian Get left behind. Jesus himself says that not everybody that calls him Lord will be saved in the end, so really the number is probably higher.
Just because a person calls themselves Christians does not mean they are good people and will go to Heaven. The Church teaches that it's important to be a good person, and that simply believing in Christ is not enough if you are not good.
And likewise, I think that an atheist person can still be a very good person and go to Heaven in the end.
Even if a person cannot bring themselves to believe in God or Jesus, if this person follows the commandments of Jesus (unknowingly) to live a life of love, generosity, honesty, kindness, etc etc... that person will absolutely go to Heaven.
^This is per my opinion, of course. The Church leaves this issue pretty open, since it's impossible to know who went to Hell.
(July 12, 2015 at 5:09 pm)dyresand Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No problem!
I really don't believe most humans will be damned, but that's just a matter of opinion, since none of us really know for sure. A rough estimate a little less than (being generous) 2.5% of the worlds population would be going to heaven. Those figures are as is.
Most of humanity would go to hell during the end times when such a minor percentage would go to heaven. That being said even
with people being born and dying every day you have to take that into account only a given 1% out of those people born are destined
to heaven while the ones who are dying are again 1%. It is really hinted by Paul that not everyone is getting into heaven and that god
created people that are noble being those who are apart of the 1% to get into heaven and the others... simply fillers that are going to hell
even if they go to jesus that won't change their outcome. The next part even if someone were to kill themselves granting that god of the bible exists
all that said person would be doing would be going to hell instead of god putting him there.
Where do these numbers come from?
For the record, they do not represent my beliefs regarding souls going to Heaven vs Hell.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 8268
Threads: 40
Joined: March 18, 2014
Reputation:
54
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 5:26 pm by Ravenshire.)
(July 11, 2015 at 1:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yeah, I don't take Revelations as literal gospel truth.
Is there any part of the buy-bull you do take as literal and true? According to statements made by you, the whole of the OT is either allegorical or straight up fiction and now Revelations is allegory? If so much of it is not literally true, then how can you defend any of it as literally true?
Edit:
Oh, and, I'll keep away from the button thanks.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
Posts: 8268
Threads: 40
Joined: March 18, 2014
Reputation:
54
RE: A moral and ethical question for theists
July 12, 2015 at 5:28 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 1:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 12:50 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: If not, then why do you take ANY if it as gospel truth? Revelation is in the bible, is it not? The bible is the infallible word of God, is it not? If not, how do you tell which is which? Because priests tell you? Good luck with that.
No, we do not believe that the bible is infallible. 
Yes, it is the inspired word of God written through the filter of man, not written by the hand of God Himself.
Us Catholics believe that the Church is the main pillar of Truth, not the bible. Unlike other Christians, we are not Sola Scriptura. The Church existed before the bible did anyhow.
Randy keeps telling us the buy-bull is inerrant. Isn't that a cathy-lick tradition or is Randy making shit up?
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
|
