Review so far of the Romans study

[Drich]

What is your purpose here?

You asked for bible versus. I gave you bible versus.

Actually no. I asked for scriptural support for the claim you made of Christian belief. You then inturn cherry picked and cobbled together verse scraps from all over the bible and cut and paste them together. This would be no different than someone cutting and pasting various words, even paragraphs out of a law book to claim validity of a law they themselves cobbled together.

Again I am looking for contextual documentation from the bible that supports what you believe about Christianity. Or I am looking for you to concede that your 'doctrinal' views are made up and do not reflect the outline of Christianity provided by the bible.

The only thing you did was interpret these the way you wanted.

Again no. The word interpret means to explain the meaning of. Something I do not have to do as the book I am reading from is written in English. and the Easy to read version, that I am quoting from pretty well explains it self. what I am doing is compiling an outline of the various chapters tying key points between them. Or referring back to the OT when Paul refers back to the OT, or when he quotes Jesus or another Apostle. I in no way have changed anything written in this Romans study. I am going line by line verse by verse. the vast majority of my commentary, simply points to the differences between what is written on page verse what is believed by the church/Christianity.

These can be interpreted in many ways both harmful and helpful and every one claims their version is the right one.

Not with a contextual reading. Meaning yes, if one approaches the bible as you did cutting and pasting verse scraps together, the bible can be made to say anything. However if you are forced to read contextually, the bible ceases to be a free for all, and puts everyone who will honestly read it contextually in the same place. think about it, what other book can you take lines out of from random stops, paste them all together, and pretend the book actually says what you've cobbled together? Then why would you think you could do this with the bible?

 This is the problem with a man made system that people believe comes from a god.

Indeed.. So why follow the man made system? why not simply read from the start of a chapter all the way through and apply what was written contextually? That would be God's intended system. which again is all that I am doing.

You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence.

ah, no. you cobbled together crap pretending it was a contextual representation of the bible.

You gave none.  You simply refuted with some mental gymnastics.

Says the dishonest person who pulled a dozen verse scraps from all over the bible and compiled into into one big mess, trying to pretend that your mess was what the bible intended with those randomly sourced verses...

No, what I did was forced a contextual reading. Once I put all those verses back into their original contexts, they in no way shape or form represented what the bible actually had to say on our given topic.

Those people in the past died because some one read the bible and said "hmmm I don't like this/these people and now I have the excuse to kill them in the name of God."  It happened period.

Ah, no. The bible was not the source of Christian world denomination. Papal authority was. That is the idea that the 'authority' of Jesus was given to "peter" and peter passed it down to the next guy and the next and the next, which is supossedly represented by the office of the pope.

Which means the sitting pope has the supposed power of Jesus Christ himself to make 'doctrine.' Thus invalidating anything the bible may say that contradicts the pope.
Why else do you think the bible was translated into a language that common people could not understand? (Latin) and forbidden to be spoken of in any language other than latin with the literal threat of being burned at the stake. (Which was enforced past the 17th century)

so again, no. The church's move on world denomination was not bible inspired. it was authorized contrary to what the bible actually says.

so again, if 'man' (even a man in a funny hat who thinks he has the power of Jesus) says do "X" and the bible says Don't do "X" then those who do "X" are not following the outline of Christianity provided by the bible. Meaning they are not following the Christianity Jesus Himself, along with his Apostles established. They are literally doing their own thing and calling it Christianity.

Again pointing back to our study in Romans. Jesus is the only one who has the power to award that title. It can not be bought or sold by a man wearing a funny hat. Meaning you/we can not earn it by following any church doctrine.

 In my own life time there are many people who would have done more than verbally,socially , or physically  harm me had it not been for SECULAR law.  NO not the one that says not to  kill but the one that says freedom of religion (which neither the bible nor its adherence give and still give benevolence).

Dude, I've literally been beaten daily 2 or 3 times aday by different groups of people for the color of my skin/mother's skin, I was even stabbed, suffered broken bones, and was given a concussion by being head slammed into the track at school (where I was left unconscious for a long period of time/long enough for my head/brow to completely swell so big it pushed my eye shut.) Not over something as trivial (something you can lie about) as what you believe or your sexuality. sometimes people cited the bible about 'mix breeds' other times it had to do with national sentiment concerning Asian people (as the last 3 wars the US fought were with Asian countries/an uncheck version of how people feel about muslims/terrorists now.) other times people did it just because they could. Never one on one, always in a group of three or more.

In all of that, never once in the hundreds of beating I must have taken did I ever blame religion or God. Because God never beat me, I always got to see the sheer evil/joy the people doing the beating got. I knew from a very early age that people did stuff like that because it pleased them to do it. whatever the reasons they did stuff like that was just an excuse for them to do what it was they wanted to do from their own heart. Evil people will always find away to excuse/make right the evil they want to do. The 'church/religion' is just a tool, one that can be easily substituted with anything else that affords them power. It is a small mind that thinks that it is only through 'god' or the church that evil men do what they want to do.

Here is what I Think you are saying.

"If a people would follow the bible correctly then they would be better people."

No...
If people would simply read their bible/Romans you would understand that ALL people are ALL Equally sinful, and no one is a 'good person.'

That we will never be good people, and to say otherwise, is simply comparing what is broken with what is more broken.

therefore God does not look at 'morality' to judge one righteous. that is why when you all point to how 'good' you think you are, I say you don't even understand the basics of biblical Christianity.

God does not 'rate' sin as you do. all are sinful, so The Father sent the Son to Take sin off the table. Now all that is left to judge is whether or not you want to Goto Heaven and Love/serve God for eternity. That is why I say those in Hell Choose Hell. They are there for no other reason. Because as Paul points out in Romans 2 the people going to Heaven go to Heaven by God's Grace alone, and for no other reason. That all in Heaven are guilty of the same exact sins of those in Hell. the only difference is those with God repent of their sins. Not because they are better people.

Which is why I do not understand what the big deal is when a josh dugger is caught scewing up. (Unless they are pharisaical in what they believe/One earns his way into heaven by tring to do more good than evil.)

I like that idea. that would be great.  However many religions or philosophical practices can be viewed this way. Many others have been used to give hope, strength, guidance, and purpose. I don't believe Christianity is special in this way. Nor do i feel that we need a belief in a god to have these things.

You say "It is not Gods fault for the actions of the people."  I say I agree but as an atheist I cannot accuse God of anything. The IDEA of God, however, is so strong and so malleable that the past and present harms (that i have posted) were justified by the people that held these ideas.

The 'idea of God' is absolute and unchanging. What changes is religion. Religion could not change very far off center if one would simply read the bible as it was written.

I understand what you are saying
"all sins are equal...get right with God by believing in Jesus and trying not to sin....and just because some one claims to be Christian doesn't mean they are following the Christian way..."  You are not the first to convey this message.  In fact, as i have said, It's all over America.

Here is the problem you are meeting from the other side of the net.

close enough. where we differ is the reasons why we do what we do.

A)  There is no proof of a god to get right with.

would God be proof of God?
If God sat down with you and worked with you on a one on one basis would that be 'proof' enough?
That is exactly what Jesus is offering in Luke 11 with the A/S/K parable.

If you do not have 'proof' it is because you have not followed the instructions provided by Christ.

 Without solid evidence I am not willing to submit to the nonsensical rules of any religion.  The ones that do make sense I can (and do) follow.

I said the same exact thing. The only difference I honestly Gave it a 100% effort on my end.
Then low and behold, God was there right where He said He would be.. I suspect He was there the whole time. It's just my heart was too hard to acknowledge Him.

B) To the critical eye religion looks very much like any other man made tool.  

Religion, Is Exactly that!
However what God offers us, is not religion. It is a personal relationship that circumvents all religious efforts. That is what this study in the book of romans is all about. It is to show that 'Christianity' is not a religion. Yes we are to gather together, but not as a way to reaching out to God but as a collective way to worship and say thanks for the daily walk/relationship we have.

Again this study in the book of romans quite literally strips the church of all power and puts God and the believer on a one on one basis. That is why I keep saying you all don't understand basic Christianity as the bible describes it.

all of you keep pointing to Religion and claiming that to be Christian you must do or follow a certain religion. when infact religion was the reason Christ died on the cross... To be rid of the institution/religion that was previously needed as a go between God and man. "We" Through the Holy Spirit and Christ now have the same access to God as any and all prophets of the OT. that is why we are ALL refered to as Saints by the Church fathers. They understood that if we have accepted the Holy Spirit then God literally becomes apart of us. If God Literally becomes apart of you, what need do we have of religion/Man's rules?

Again, that is why I've always said biblical Christianity is very different than religion of any Kind.

Like any tool it can be used or abused. This I have clearly shown. There are over two thousand bible rules.  Most of which are great if you are a  struggling tribe of people in the desert from the bronze age.

Not according to Paul and what we are studying in romans 8. In that He directly says we are free from the law/The Law no longer applies because we though Christ have died to the law as a means to our righteousness. The 'Law' is only purpose is to point to the sin in an unrepentant person's life/What will be used to judge the unrepentant.

C) when some one (in this case atheists) sees something wrong with the status quo (in this case religion)  the status quo often fights back (in this case you).

What I am fighting for is to open your mind. Not to defend religion. I myself am not a fan.

If you put yourself in the mind of a skeptic you will see that this logic follows (A),(B), and ©. This means then that your sermon will have no effect.  Miymoto Musashi said "do nothing that is useless" (book of five rings).

I lived the 1st 1/2 of my life as a skeptic, but an honest one. I tested God the way He told us to test him and Found what was promised. I am nothing special. This promise was made to all of us not just those who grew up 'Christian.'

I do what I do because I have seen how religion (note i did not say JUST Christianity) can be used to separate and harm the human race "he who is not with me is against me".

Which is true.. Now ask your self is 'religion' for or against God if the bible says do ABC, and religion says do 123.

 If my guess is correct then in your world view  when every one (all 7 billion of us) believe the same religion (and interpret the same belief correctly) then and only then will we be united as a people and therefore religious harm will cease.  This is probably true as logic goes.  In reality this wont happen without the true presence of a god.

That's the thing... Not all are called to worship the God of the bible. Only those who God has set or given access to His word.

Produce this god instead of words that can be written by man, translated, edited, embellished, and interpreted. The skeptic eagerly awaits.

If I or anyother man could 'produce God' then that 'god' would not be worthy of worship. Imagine a world leader like the PotUS. is he at any person's beckon call? Despite what you may think of Him personally, does the PotUS come running when someone wants to meet with him? or is their a set procedure to meet him/You meet him on his terms? Why would the being that holds an infinatly higher 'office' be able to be summoned to do tricks and parties at anyone's beckon call?

No, like the PotUS you need to be vetted and follow procedure. The first thing is to be Humble enough to follow directions for what He has promised in Luke 11. Next you need Christ to vouch for you/redeemed. then you are given a measure of the Spirit. If you are faithful to what you have, then you will be given more, and more...

Note that i have changed tactics by attempting to understand the topic not just refuting every little point.  I have explained my thinking on the subject while acknowledge what I see as  yours.
. Can you do the same
Again i ask ...what is your purpose here?

To bring clarity and answer questions about Biblical Christianity.
To point people in the direction of God if they truly want 'proof.'

what you post next will make a large difference to me.  Do not be useless.