God and Morality: Separate Issues

[DeistPaladin]

... the comparison is between statement X ("God is morality") and statement Y ("Moral order is grounded in the very nature of God"). And somehow you think both state the same thing? The difference between them is so obvious; that is, X states something about the nature of God, whereas Y states something about the nature of morality. They are two very different contexts and difficult to miss. ...Statement Y does not identify God as morality; in fact, it says nothing about God at all. (Refering to the nature of God does not say anything about the nature of God.)

Actually, statement Y seems to me to say a great deal about God. To say that morality or goodness is "grounded in the very nature of God" is to say that God is good. This is the whole point of the theistic argument that God is necessary for morality to exist.

So fine, let's replace option #3 with your statement "morality is grounded in the very nature of God".

what I base it on is Scripture; and how I defend it is through logic (modus tollens).

Ah, this is an important point to clarify. I was speaking of the concept of God in the abstract, not necessarily any particular version of anyone's religion. Specifically discussing the morality of the Biblical god involves you defending the rape, genocide, slavery and other crimes by YHWH's instruction. That's a topic for another thread, and you're welcome to start one (I'm keen to hear your "logic" on this matter). I'd like to keep this discussion on whether or not a god is required for morality to exist.

That is using a conclusion implicitly in a premise, which I did not do; in fact, I have not presented any argument whatsoever. You are terribly confused. I have no idea who or what you are addressing here but it is neither me nor my statements.[/quote Wrote:Hm, you have not presented any argument on this thread discussing whether or not the existence of morality and the existence of God are two separate issues? I must be confused then. I could have sworn you wrote

moral order is grounded in the very nature of God and revealed prescriptively in his commands.

and then clarified that this means

What it means is that God is a necessary precondition of morality

but apparently I'm terribly confused.

Now if your basis is scripture and not the circular reasoning of "we know God is good because God is good", then perhaps a new thread is in order where we can discuss the specifics of YHWH's actions and commandments.

You still have not explained how I have done this. [beg the question]

You said (Msg. 1), "The issue of whether or not God exists is irrelevant to questions of right and wrong." That is true on your presuppositions, but not on the presuppositions of those you are arguing against. That is to beg the question against your opponent's view.

See that's called "taking a position", not begging the question. I have then backed up my position with reasoning as to why my position is correct. If I'm wrong or missing something, feel free to present your own counter arguments but don't bandy about frivolous accusations of logical fallacies. That's not helpful to the discussion.