(January 12, 2016 at 12:42 pm)Old Baby Wrote: I'm not going to respond inline because I'm not interested in doing a tit for tat on every minor point.
Does this mean your not interested in this type of conversation, if so say so and we can drop this.
Old Baby Wrote:1. I'm not going to try to convince you that you're living a lie, because you've already said that nothing could sway you from your faith. I was also unshakable in terms of other people talking me out of my belief, so I get that. I had to deconstruct it on my own.
There's a big difference in you and me, I see no reason to deconstruct what I know is real.
Old Baby Wrote:2. I'm not saying that it's impossible that I'm 100% wrong and that your faith is legitimate. I'm saying that our conclusions are incompatible. I can't reach the conclusion that it was all a delusion and still accept that it's true for other people. I think you're probably sincere in your beliefs, just as I was, but now I'm just as sincere in my non-belief.
I don't think you are so sincere in your non-belief. See the bold above. Not only that how sincere were you in your faith if you looked to deconstruct your own faith. I could understand questioning things but, to deconstruct what you seem to say was important to you.
Old Baby Wrote:3. If God is Truth then Truth is God. Your objection to this point makes no sense, plus you contradicted yourself. You said "truth can never be God" and in the next sentence you said "God is truth, love, compassion, caring, salvation and ect". You went on to say that God is reality, which makes my point for me.
God is truth because of who God is, truth would not exist without Him. Truth is not what God does, truth exist only because He does not visa versa. reality wouldn't exist if God didn't exist, God is reality because of who God is, reality could have never made God because there's no reality without Him.
Old Baby Wrote:4. You're basically saying that you turned to faith to guide you out of your doubt. In other words, you relied on your subjective experience rather than what your five senses were telling you. The biblical definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". In other words, it's believing because you want something to be real, and the belief itself is what makes it reality.
My five senses tell me the same thing my objective and/or absolute experiences do. I do not believe the subjective has a place in a relationship with God who is absolute. Now let's break down what the verse you quoted, " the substance of things hoped for," these are the things promised by God such as forgiveness and salvation. "the evidence of things not seen," meaning through our spiritual relationship with God we can know He's real, also through miracles and answered prayer and yes I've experienced these things in my life. So I and scripture disagree with your conclusion. Tell me why would carnal man want to believe in a God that doesn't exist, why would man subject himself to such things? If there's no God then there would be no convection there would be no real morals to live by or break, we could just pass off whatever we don't want in our lives.
Old Baby Wrote:5. You're asserting that 30+ years of trying to please God might not be sufficient time for God to make himself real to me. The fact that I prayed, studied, taught Sunday school, ministered from the pulpit, tithed more than 10% of my income since childhood, enjoyed listening to sermons, counseled people, grieved over my sins, tried hard to live to the biblical standard, and refused to settle for anything less than a knowledge of the truth means nothing.
No I did not, I said that it takes a sincere heart and time, you said you were indoctrinated into Christianity and therefore you truly had no real belief. The fact you did those things you stated above, you were going through the motions. How could any of it been relevant to you if you were indoctrinated, by saying you were indoctrinated you're saying you never believed. Pretending will never get you an answer from God to the questions you have. All the prayer, all the teaching and counseling, all your Christian activities were for what? As I see it nothing, how could it be anything else, you by your own admission of indoctrination are saying you never really believed. Like I said going through the motions will get you nowhere with God, His work is serious and pretenders just want fit.
Old Baby Wrote:6. You're asserting that my non-belief is my fault because I did not seek God, study the scriptures, or allow God to reveal himself to me. Read #5 again.
Your non-belief is your fault, who else is to responsible for your non-belief. I answered #5, you may think I'm being critical in the answer, that's not my intention, I'm only trying to lay out the truth, the truth is what you said you wanted to get at.
Old baby Wrote:7. I'm not really very good at science, but I'm pretty sure that dinosaur DNA survives because it's in fossils. Do you know what a fossil is? You're suggesting that the stuff science comes up with is puerile. The only reason that a rational person would assert this is because those findings would seem to contradict their sacred book. You're suggesting that I shouldn't trust something that there's mountains of evidence for, but yet it's silly not to accept something that there's no evidence for whatsoever.
No DNA can survive that long, period. Your statement reminds me of another fact, bone has been found in fossils and bone can't last that long either, these are science facts. I'm saying science is based from a false assumption to begin with, evolutionary science wants to preserve the science because the only other answer will be God. Evolution or God there is nothing else left, they are the only two options. Evolution brings nothing but death in the end, God promises eternal life with Him, remember "the things hoped for." Besides you are trusting in something you know little about, something that comes from fallible man. I personally trust the God I know, the omniscient One.
Old Baby Wrote:8. Every assertion you make about me reveals how little you know about me. Again, having come from religion, I understand this completely. Every time someone makes a statement that opposes your worldview, you have to find a way to marginalize that person. Either they were never a true Christian (seed that fell on stony ground) or they were a Christian who departed the faith because they loved "the world" too much (seed that fell among thorns). Also, there's no such thing as agnostics or atheists. They all believe deep down, but they're just in rebellion.
I have not tried to marginalize you, I'm trying to show you there are answers to your questions for God, are you sure He's not trying to reach out to you and let you know He has some answers for you through this conversation. This wouldn't be the first time God chose to use me to help another person.
Yes I believe that all atheist are in rebellion, but I also believe they believe their world view, I take them serious because they are detrimental to God's truth for other people, they will steal away the seed. Watch.
Old Baby Wrote:I'm going to give you more credit than others around here. I think you're probably a sincere believer, but you live in a bubble. Having just emerged from that bubble myself, I understand you completely.
I thank you for the credit however, I do not live in a bubble I see the world as it is, I'm not one who put blinders on to keep out information, if I had I would not have been part of this forum for so many years. I actually find that the atheist here often retreat to a bubble. Sorry I want be able to get back with you for a few days i'm having surgery tomorrow on my hand.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
