RE: Can't prove the supernatural God
May 23, 2016 at 3:09 am
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2016 at 3:12 am by robvalue.)
(May 22, 2016 at 7:48 pm)SteveII Wrote: Can you give an example of something that has a material cause and not an efficient cause? Even better, an example that might otherwise be considered a miracle by someone at some time.
This apparently happens in quantum mechanics all the time. People consider all kinds of things miracles before they understand them. They even consider them miracles when science does understand them.
Quote:So, your position seems to be that what we call miracles have naturalistic explanations that we just don't understand yet?
No. I'm saying they might have, or they may have no efficient cause.
Quote:1) Isn't that an argument from ignorance?
No. I'm not making a claim. I'm refuting the claim that there are no natural causes to any given event.
Quote:2) Under that reasoning, why don't we see more of these 'miracles' if it is just a matter of misunderstanding the cause? The rarity of a miracle actually supports the premise that miracles happen.
We don't see any miracles. We see people reporting miracles. I can't help what people report.
Quote:3) If you zero in on a particular miracle example, there are often circumstances that make the 'heretofore unknown natural causes' just at the right moment and in the right context ridiculously unlikely.
I don't think you, or anyone, is qualified to make that assessment. You're again assuming our scientific knowledge is almost complete.
Quote:4) Whether a miracle happened or not is a probabilistic question. The more evidence and context clues the higher the probability.
No, it's an argument from ignorance. There is no way of calculating the probability of there being an explanation we don't know yet. And what is the point? If we find the explanation, the conclusion was wrong. If we never find it, we still don't know the explanation is right, and it achieves nothing.
Even if you could determine there was a supernatural cause, you could never determine what that cause is. What use is that? Any supernatural cause would look the same as any other, which would look the same as no cause at all from our perspective. We only see the resulting effect.
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