RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 18, 2016 at 9:16 am
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2016 at 9:32 am by Ignorant.)
(June 18, 2016 at 8:50 am)robvalue Wrote: In other words: let's say jesus, the man, said those words. Which is the most likely explanation:
1) He thought he was talking to god. [1] Whether or not anyone was listening is irrelevant. But he himself was not god. [2]
2) He actually was god, [3] talking to another aspect of himself, [4] which had different knowledge to him, [5] causing him to become confused by himself. [6]
How many assumptions to have you make for option 2 to even be possible, let alone probable? [7]
1) He did think this.
2) If Jesus was the Son of God united to a man in a single person (as Christianity accepts), then it does not follow that because (insofar as he is human) he thinks he is talking to God the Father, that he, therefore, is not the Son of God united to a man in a single person.
3) This is a false dichotomy given the Christian understanding of the incarnation. He was god. He was human. Both are true.
4) Yes, the human aspect of himself, at the moment that it lost the experience of its union to the divine aspect of himself, spoke to the divine aspect of himself despite the lack of its immediate experience. Failing to experience that divine presence in himself (due to both the divine and human voluntarily withdrawing the experience but not the withdrawal of the union), in solidarity with all the rest of us who lack that experience, the human aspect of himself cries out to God with a very pointed question.
5) The human aspect of himself had different knowledge from the divine aspect of himself, yes. Any divine means of knowledge which the human aspect had through the union to the divine aspect ceased in this moment, contributing to the agony.
6) Yep. Confused, but still trusting.
7) See above regarding the false dichotomy. The only assumption needed is that of the incarnation, i.e. a human nature is united to the personal divinity of the Son of God from the moment of Jesus's conception. Everything it takes to be human, Jesus had. Everything it takes to be the Son of God, Jesus had. All of those things were united in the single person of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth.
Quote:A) It is possible there is a god
B) There is a god
C) This man jesus was (part of) that god
D) This god can split itself into distinct entities with separate knowledge
E) This god would choose to do the above for some reason
F) This god would want people to witness part of himself talking to another part of himself, apparently confused, as if he was just a man talking to some unseen distinct entity
Assumptions required for option 1:
None.
Well sure, but I assumed that in a discussion about Christianity, some of those assumptions come granted.
If none of the assumptions A-F can be granted on account of revelation, then of course we can't expect a merely logical conclusion [about the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth] from first principles and scientific investigation.
[Explicitly Christian beliefs about Jesus, the nature and identity of God and the relationship between Jesus and God are not scientifically/historically demonstrable. I readily agree to that, and only make claims about Jesus and God with the understanding that I derive those claims from faith in a particular revelation. If this was meant to be a critical examination of Christianity without reference to those things held by faith, then I withdraw my comments.]