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The problem with prayer.
#90
RE: The problem with prayer.
(July 25, 2016 at 11:02 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(July 25, 2016 at 8:43 am)Stimbo Wrote: 1 On the quantum level, nothing from nothing isn't an accurate description of reality

It has been pointed out by many that a quantum vacuum isn’t exactly ‘nothing’ as traditionally understood. A proper atheistic response seems to be that a quantum vacuum adequately satisfied the role of necessary being. Perhaps. Deciding whether it can fill that role requires looking at additional criteria. Anything that is truly fundamental would also be non-contingent; it could not be other than how it is.
That does not seem to be the case with a quantum vacuum. A quantum vacuum follows specific physical laws that govern its capacities and behaviors. From where do these laws come? Either they are brute facts or they could have been otherwise. According to those laws (as I understand from others) the quantum vacuum is unstable. That instability means that it can exist in more than one state: productive or inert. That makes any change of state contingent some more fundamental cause. So presumably, it could be otherwise and whatever is truly fundamental must be found at a deeper level.

So you're content to take shelter behind a huge argument from ignorance? We don't know enough about any initial conditions of the Universe to conclude that a quantum vacuum at that point isn't nothing (and tradition can kiss my arse, frankly; why should anyone care about what is traditionally understood in the face of the raw bleeding edge of physics?)

"From where do these laws come?" is as asinine as "if humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" You're the one proposing these laws came from a god - make your case. Don't just tell us it's a necessary being, actually paint the picture.

(July 25, 2016 at 11:02 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(July 25, 2016 at 8:43 am)Stimbo Wrote: 2 Assuming you are right, how did your classical "God" manage it - both for itself and for the Universe?

If there are absolutes, primitives, and/or fundamentals, then at some point those who wonder must accept some things as brute facts. The issue at hand is this: has the chain of explanations gone as deeply as possible? The Principle of Sufficient Reason only applies until it doesn’t. As a general rule, atheists stop too early and send boys to do the tasks of men. They take some things as brute facts, like quantum vacuum, even though those things do not satisfy the criteria for fundamentals.

And superintelligent beings with literally zero external evidence for their very existence do? The exact same explanation for millions of toys appearing in children's bedrooms every year? Before hitching one's flag to a position, isn't it at least pragmatic to exhaust every other, simpler possibilities first? Less facial egg lies that way.

(July 25, 2016 at 11:02 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(July 25, 2016 at 8:43 am)Stimbo Wrote: 3 What part(s) of the scriptural text lead inevitably to that conclusion to the exclusion of any other?

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘that conclusion’. What conclusion? Anyway, we have strayed far from the OP topic of prayer.

The conclusion that reality existed before time began. Don't woryy about drifting off-topic; that happens all the time and this one is more restrained than most.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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Messages In This Thread
The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 20, 2016 at 9:52 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by mediocrates - July 20, 2016 at 10:06 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ApeNotKillApe - July 20, 2016 at 10:13 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 10:38 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - July 25, 2016 at 10:56 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by FatAndFaithless - July 20, 2016 at 10:09 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 20, 2016 at 10:34 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 10:40 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 20, 2016 at 10:42 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 10:59 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by brewer - July 20, 2016 at 1:58 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Spirian - July 20, 2016 at 2:39 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by brewer - July 20, 2016 at 3:48 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Spirian - July 20, 2016 at 4:12 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by chimp3 - August 1, 2016 at 10:20 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 11:06 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 11:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:03 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:09 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 20, 2016 at 11:12 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 11:09 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:11 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 11:26 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 11:51 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 20, 2016 at 1:09 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Angrboda - July 20, 2016 at 1:49 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 20, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 20, 2016 at 12:49 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 20, 2016 at 12:57 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 20, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 21, 2016 at 7:08 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 20, 2016 at 1:16 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 21, 2016 at 12:33 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 1:34 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2016 at 2:41 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by CapnAwesome - July 20, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Spirian - July 20, 2016 at 1:48 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 20, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 20, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by PETE_ROSE - July 20, 2016 at 3:31 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Viking - July 20, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2016 at 4:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 21, 2016 at 6:34 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 21, 2016 at 6:40 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by chimp3 - July 21, 2016 at 6:54 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 21, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 21, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 23, 2016 at 3:45 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 23, 2016 at 8:00 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 24, 2016 at 4:20 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 25, 2016 at 10:40 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 26, 2016 at 3:28 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 26, 2016 at 4:10 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 27, 2016 at 2:52 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Grandizer - July 26, 2016 at 7:20 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 27, 2016 at 3:44 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Grandizer - July 27, 2016 at 8:22 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 29, 2016 at 2:30 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 27, 2016 at 1:43 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 29, 2016 at 2:25 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 29, 2016 at 6:13 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 3:58 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 30, 2016 at 9:23 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 4, 2016 at 2:46 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 29, 2016 at 5:43 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gemini - July 29, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 3:56 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 3:55 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 26, 2016 at 1:06 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 27, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 27, 2016 at 6:28 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 29, 2016 at 2:35 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 26, 2016 at 6:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Spirian - July 21, 2016 at 1:58 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 21, 2016 at 2:16 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2016 at 3:00 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by brewer - July 21, 2016 at 7:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 23, 2016 at 3:47 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 23, 2016 at 8:01 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 23, 2016 at 8:03 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 24, 2016 at 7:56 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 24, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Silver - July 24, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 24, 2016 at 3:41 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 24, 2016 at 3:46 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Esquilax - July 24, 2016 at 5:03 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 24, 2016 at 3:45 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 26, 2016 at 8:11 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 24, 2016 at 8:54 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Silver - July 24, 2016 at 9:30 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - July 24, 2016 at 9:45 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 25, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 24, 2016 at 10:54 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 25, 2016 at 7:03 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 8:54 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by LostLocke - July 25, 2016 at 9:41 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Drich - July 25, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 12:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - July 25, 2016 at 1:02 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 25, 2016 at 1:17 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 10:15 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Drich - July 25, 2016 at 3:09 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Nay_Sayer - July 25, 2016 at 6:04 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Drich - July 26, 2016 at 8:12 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - July 26, 2016 at 8:31 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 26, 2016 at 12:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Esquilax - July 26, 2016 at 12:57 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Crossless1 - July 25, 2016 at 10:39 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2016 at 11:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - July 25, 2016 at 11:06 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2016 at 11:20 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - July 25, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 12:40 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2016 at 6:47 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 7:29 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 11:06 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 25, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by FatAndFaithless - July 25, 2016 at 1:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 1:27 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 7:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 1:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 1:29 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 2:58 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by FatAndFaithless - July 25, 2016 at 3:00 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 3:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2016 at 7:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 7:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 8:07 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 8:09 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 8:11 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 8:16 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 8:29 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by drfuzzy - July 25, 2016 at 8:46 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 8:13 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Silver - July 25, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Valkyrie - July 25, 2016 at 8:36 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 25, 2016 at 9:26 pm
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - July 25, 2016 at 9:44 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 10:21 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 10:38 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 10:23 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 10:25 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 10:27 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 25, 2016 at 10:41 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 25, 2016 at 10:45 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 25, 2016 at 10:50 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Homeless Nutter - July 26, 2016 at 5:50 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2016 at 11:33 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 26, 2016 at 5:32 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 7:08 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 7:09 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Gawdzilla - July 26, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 26, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2016 at 12:06 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 26, 2016 at 12:15 pm
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - July 26, 2016 at 12:56 pm
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - July 26, 2016 at 12:59 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 5:49 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Angrboda - July 26, 2016 at 7:24 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by vorlon13 - July 26, 2016 at 7:51 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 26, 2016 at 8:00 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 26, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Angrboda - July 26, 2016 at 9:47 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 9:05 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 26, 2016 at 9:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by vorlon13 - July 26, 2016 at 11:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 26, 2016 at 9:12 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 26, 2016 at 9:20 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 26, 2016 at 10:20 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by bennyboy - July 26, 2016 at 10:53 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Valkyrie - July 26, 2016 at 10:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - July 26, 2016 at 10:43 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 26, 2016 at 11:23 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Valkyrie - July 26, 2016 at 11:35 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 27, 2016 at 3:16 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 27, 2016 at 6:12 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by vorlon13 - July 27, 2016 at 9:39 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 27, 2016 at 6:48 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2016 at 9:42 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 27, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 27, 2016 at 9:46 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by vorlon13 - July 27, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by ignoramus - July 27, 2016 at 11:09 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by vorlon13 - July 28, 2016 at 8:39 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by rado84 - July 28, 2016 at 7:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 2:58 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 29, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 3:43 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 4:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Excited Penguin - July 29, 2016 at 3:51 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 4:00 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - August 1, 2016 at 9:31 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 4, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - August 4, 2016 at 10:47 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 5, 2016 at 4:15 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Angrboda - August 4, 2016 at 6:54 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 5, 2016 at 4:20 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Angrboda - August 5, 2016 at 10:58 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Nay_Sayer - August 11, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Incognito - August 1, 2016 at 10:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 4, 2016 at 2:44 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Excited Penguin - August 4, 2016 at 2:46 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 4, 2016 at 3:17 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Excited Penguin - August 4, 2016 at 3:19 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Expired - August 4, 2016 at 4:16 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 5, 2016 at 4:11 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Expired - August 5, 2016 at 2:22 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Jesster - August 11, 2016 at 5:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Crossless1 - August 11, 2016 at 5:41 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Jesster - August 11, 2016 at 5:43 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - August 11, 2016 at 8:56 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Grandizer - August 11, 2016 at 9:25 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by drfuzzy - August 13, 2016 at 8:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Grandizer - August 13, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Incognito - August 31, 2016 at 2:38 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 29, 2016 at 3:35 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 29, 2016 at 3:38 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Czechlervitz30 - July 29, 2016 at 3:41 am
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - July 29, 2016 at 9:18 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 9:24 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 29, 2016 at 9:26 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 29, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 9:55 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - July 29, 2016 at 10:14 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 11:38 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 11:39 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 11:39 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - July 29, 2016 at 11:52 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by FatAndFaithless - July 29, 2016 at 11:53 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 29, 2016 at 11:53 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by popsthebuilder - July 29, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 29, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 3:59 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 4:01 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 4:39 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 4:52 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - August 4, 2016 at 2:54 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Minimalist - July 31, 2016 at 1:46 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 4:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Godschild - July 30, 2016 at 4:41 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 4:51 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 9:28 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - July 30, 2016 at 9:59 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 30, 2016 at 10:03 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Neo-Scholastic - July 31, 2016 at 10:27 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - August 1, 2016 at 9:38 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Losty - August 2, 2016 at 2:42 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - July 31, 2016 at 1:28 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 1, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Cyberman - August 1, 2016 at 1:03 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 1, 2016 at 1:00 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 2, 2016 at 12:03 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 2, 2016 at 2:50 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 2, 2016 at 2:50 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Fidel_Castronaut - August 2, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Expired - August 2, 2016 at 3:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by madog - August 2, 2016 at 4:54 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 4, 2016 at 3:02 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - August 4, 2016 at 6:17 pm
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - August 4, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - August 5, 2016 at 1:14 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - August 5, 2016 at 4:14 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 5, 2016 at 6:59 am
The problem with prayer. - by LadyForCamus - August 5, 2016 at 8:13 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - August 5, 2016 at 8:16 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Edwardo Piet - August 5, 2016 at 8:16 am
RE: The problem with prayer. - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2016 at 3:30 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Whateverist - August 11, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by robvalue - August 5, 2016 at 3:55 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by Nay_Sayer - August 11, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: The problem with prayer. - by rado84 - August 23, 2016 at 7:31 am

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