On Catholicism!

[fr0d0]

You were saying that those those atheist who had an opinion about what christianity where ignorant and that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Most atheist's I've come into contact with understand little about what Christianity actually is in reality.

Those who have been catholic on this site have self said that they see themselves as christians. Isn't that what's more importent what they see themselves as?

My assertion is that Catholicism isn't necessarily Christianity. You need to consult the wider Christian church for a definition. Granted only the individual can know if their a Christian or not, given they follow Christian requirements. If you pray to a saint, for example, you're doing the opposite of what Christ said directly, so are being, in that moment, anti Christ.

I was in a christian kindergarten and therefore learned alot about christianity. Also have sicen I become an atheist looked at religion and acctually know more about christianity and religion then I knew when I was a christian.

You were in a Christian school before 6 years of age? And you never actually made a decision to follow Christ? IMO this makes you never a Christian, never understanding what it means to actually be a Christian and a complete outsider. Yes you may be more informed than someone without that experience, but this makes you completely uninformed in my understanding.

But you said you were a Christian. How so?

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[quote='fr0d0' pid='14001' dateline='1239730518']

You don't answer any of my points. I've already said why some that consider themselves Catholics are not also Christians. If you disagree with this then you are ignorant of Christianity.

Because disgreeing with you is your criteria for ignorance[/quote]
Not at all. Did I not say the above then? And does this not contradict what you said?

How about you crack open a dictionary.
Nevermind, I did it for you:

Christian –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

No secular dictionary defines Christianity accurately. Not that I've found. Secular dictionaries deal with secular understanding. It isn't possible to explain Christianity from a Christian perspective to a non Christian. It won't make sense.


[quote='Eilonnwy' pid='14009' dateline='1239735202']Doesn't have to include the Nicene creed. It is a dogma that many faiths include but NOT required to be a Christian. All that's required is belief in Jesus.

All Christians have the Nicene Creed in common. Non Christians can believe in Jesus, Non Christians can follow Christ's teachings.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I never said going against Christ's teachings is being Christian. The point I was making is that people can derive whatever meaning they want from Christ's teachings and that's why different sects call other sects non-Christian. The distinction that certain people may claim Catholicism and not truly be Christian is irrelevant to having Catholicism, as a religion, be considered Christian.

No Christian Church can do whatever they like. The wider Christian Church only accepts Christians on strict criteria. People are prone to do stuff wrong sometimes. Again it's the aim thing.. people fall short, that doesn't make the goal less valid.

I'll say it again, the Catholic church is considered a Christian church by the wider Christian Church.

I don't care about your little quibbles about what people believe in the Catholic faith that in your opinion makes them non Christian. Fact: Christian's believe in Christ, follow his teachings. Fact: Catholics believe in Christ and follow their interpretations of Christ's teachings. They have fulfilled their requirement to be Christian, it doesn't matter what interpretation they take because there a MANY.

Incorrect. It does matter what all Christians believe to be accepted by the wider Christian Church. Like I've said, it's a strict definition.

The point that I was making was whether someone claims to be a Catholic but follow it's teachings is irrelevant. There will always be someone who says "I'm catholic, I'm christian" but doesn't really believe or doesn't follow the teachings as described by their demonitations

People can lie, and to themselves. Absolutely.

You trott out a list of things that Catholics believe in and say that makes them not Christian. Sorry, intracacies of what Catholics and what you accept is not the point. The point is that their beliefs are based on Jesus, just as well as yours. I would in fact agree with you on certain points that the Catholics believe that really seems to contradict what's in the Bible. Doesn't matter. The Catholic that believes it would just as vehemently say you're wrong and possibly assert your not Christian.

I don't say these things make them non Christian. I say these things ARE anti Christian. Simple fact is if you do something anti Christian then that's what you're doing. Some things are up for debate, some are not.

Hey, you know Jesus said: Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Have you sold all your possessions. I think I can safely assume you're not poor on the street, since that's what this passage requires, and soo Oops, you haven't followed Jesus here. Guess you're not a Christian.

Good point If I believed the opposite to be true than I'd be going against what Jesus was saying there. I don't. I agree.

Now I'm sure you don't agree with my "interpretation" of this passage in one way or another. Doesn't matter, the point is that there are differences of opinion of what Jesus's teachings and what it is to be Christian, this is only a simple example.

I don't see that there's any conflict. I agree that we in the wealthy west are spiritually baron and the dependency on wealth is spiritually disabling. The lesson is true to me.

Simple fact: Catholics are Christian. I don't care what you think Catholics believe that makes it so they are incorrectly following Jesus therefore not Christian. It's irrelevant, because there is only 1 requirement to be a Christian which has been explained and repeated many times.

The problem really is that Kyu paints with the Catholic brush assuming that he's addressing Christians and not his own misconceptions. To Kyu his unique understanding of some screwed up ideas on Catholicism from his own experience actually apply to the wider Christian Church when Christians tell him straight where he's in error. Kyu doesn't accept this and seeks to confirm his innacurracies with a meaningless poll.

There is no one requirement to being a Christian as I've pointed out above. Not that I don't think you're getting it. I think you are.