morality is subjective and people don't have free will

[emjay]

I agree.  However, this is where the determined determinist is likely to answer - yes but but those factors inside their control were put there by factors outside their control in the past.  So the illusion of internal control is just delayed external control.  To which I go look at some flowers or start tidying up the kitchen.

All of this is above my pay grade... so I'll join you in the kitchen All I know is I'm a hard determinist, but discussions like this, with so many different meanings for 'free will' and 'choice' just go right over my head. And as a general rule, it is very confusing to think about determinism on the one hand vs the subjective experience of choice on the other, and tends to lead to a lot of seeming paradoxes, fatalism being one such confusion/paradox that people can get into. So the most I ever apply it is looking backward... not forward, but even then... although it is a comfort to say 'meh, it couldn't have been any other way'... that is still in a way following fatalist thinking in the sense that any inclusion of apathy as a result of considering the clockwork universe, is a different response than it would have been without it.