(January 31, 2018 at 11:57 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(January 31, 2018 at 3:27 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:
Okay, let's simplify it:
I mean agency as a means of having a say in the structure of the larger social framework in which a person lives. A monarch or dictator - assuming they have direct control over such rules and their implementation - doesn't allow their subjects agency in that sense. It doesn't matter if the rules and their implementation are always beneficial, the individual's voice, and their right to self-determination, is being stifled.
Now, a lot of existing monarchies have various legislative bodies who ostensibly represent the interests of the people. But there's no such apparatus described in the bible. It's just Jesus/god is king, and that's it.
I believe that such a setup is, indeed, harmful.
Regarding the forum, even though Tibs is the owner, the staff here is open to suggestions from the rank and file, and, indeed, changes have been made because of it (see: the most recent rule about targeting groups for no other reason than to insult or incite them). It's a collaborative relationship. Moreover, anyone can choose to not engage with others here without fear of punishment. Don't like the way things are done? Then leave. That's not possible under the heaven/hell binary.
The same can be said for work relationships, or even familial relationships once one has the means to be self-sufficient. The god relationship is unlike any other, and it's one that doesn't respect the individual's choice to not be involved. It's engage, or suffer. And for me, no matter how much bliss may be involved if one does decide to join the arrangement, the overall structure of it is troublesome.
I could disagree some, in that I think that even in a monarchy, you can still voice your concerns and they can be taken into consideration. Likewise, there are very few true democracies, so you voice may not carry the weight that you think.
But, if I am understanding you correctly; you could have the two different governments with all things being equal, except for the structure, they both have the same rules, the same outcomes, functionally they are no different. But if you did not have a hand in that outcome, then you think it is evil or at least undesirable to the point of you cannot accept it. I am curious how active are you in the government? And while this is just a subjective opinion (which is really all you are advancing) this sounds like control issues to me. For me, if there isn't a need for me to be involved, I'll often give up control. Some of my best motorcycle trips, I just followed.
As to not being able to change or opt out. I sorry I don't think I understand this argument either. Physics is out of my control, and I didn't get a say in it; however, I don't get upset at it because I wasn't consulted.
I vote in every election and do my best to stay informed. I can't have a more direct involvement due to the day-to-day logistical issues presented by my disability. Suffice it to say, I'm not being hypocritical.
And, of course, with those motorcycle trips, you still had the option to voice your opinion to the group to go to a certain destination, or say 'screw it' and go your own way with little to no negative impact (certainly nothing remotely nearing hell)....
With regards to physics, remember: my issue is with the notion of divine beings with an agenda attempting to lord over humanity. Moreover, I didn't exist at the advent of physics, so I couldn't have been consulted anyway.
Also keep in mind, I'm certain that death is the annihilation of the self. I'm just trying to figure out why this particular part of Christianity is so popular. Why is it such a powerful hook? I doubt I'll truly grasp it, because declaring "Jesus is Lord" generates a pretty strong negative visceral reaction in me. And it's not from any church trauma - I've been in a church maybe 10-15 times in my entire life, bored to tears each time.
