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Would They Die for a Lie?
#59
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 19, 2018 at 11:01 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Secondary sources and primary sources often contain different information.  You can't always simply say primary sources are preferred as if you were making an apples to apples comparison when in fact it often is not, but as in this case is an apples to oranges comparison.  If a source is guilty of speculation, then document that fact.  Implying that a secondary source is only speculating or is guilty of speculation simply because it is a secondary source is not a justified conclusion.

(And I'll also note that you go beyond what you can demonstrate with your primary source to engage in speculation of your own, in spite of having just chastised someone for quoting a source which you feel was engaged in speculation.)
In this specific case there is no doubt the primary source material trumps the conjecture of the wiki page, as it is a direct source that contradicts the wiki page conclusions.

That said There is no speculation in the 1st century letter from pliny the younger to the emperor.

He/Governor Pliny directly asks is it ok to kill Christians in the way he does Eg( people who are directly caught or will not deny the faith/including women.) This by itself proves persecution of the 1st century church, as these acts alone perpetrated on any other group of people would indeed be identified as persecution.
believe in Christ=death deny the faith/christ=life. These people were being killed for their expressed belief in the faith. 
what's more??  

The emperor response in the affirmative in that it is ok to kill admitted christians but not if they deny the faith.

The same exact thing happened in 19th century japan. there was even a movie about it called "silence" where admitted Christ only were killed. It is hard to imagine what these admitted christian.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0490215/

This movie was sold to us as being an example of members of the christian faith being persecuted. So why then why wouldn't a 1st century decree carried out in a similar fashion not be considered to be persecution.
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Messages In This Thread
Would They Die for a Lie? - by YahwehIsTheWay - November 30, 2018 at 7:45 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 12:04 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 4, 2018 at 2:13 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Minimalist - December 4, 2018 at 12:10 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 1:17 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 4, 2018 at 1:20 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 1:25 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 4, 2018 at 1:32 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 1:50 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 4, 2018 at 2:18 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 3:09 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 4, 2018 at 5:14 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Divinity - December 4, 2018 at 2:14 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 4, 2018 at 2:17 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by GUBU - December 6, 2018 at 5:47 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by unfogged - December 6, 2018 at 8:26 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by GUBU - December 7, 2018 at 6:56 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gwaithmir - December 6, 2018 at 9:51 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by unsapien - December 4, 2018 at 5:03 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 5:17 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 4, 2018 at 5:31 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 4, 2018 at 5:32 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 4, 2018 at 5:42 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Angrboda - December 5, 2018 at 10:57 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by unsapien - December 4, 2018 at 5:56 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 5, 2018 at 2:14 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 5, 2018 at 11:06 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Amarok - December 5, 2018 at 2:18 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 5, 2018 at 4:51 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by unsapien - December 5, 2018 at 8:06 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Rev. Rye - December 6, 2018 at 10:29 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 9, 2018 at 10:19 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 10, 2018 at 12:51 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 10, 2018 at 11:40 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 11, 2018 at 10:53 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 11, 2018 at 12:33 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 11, 2018 at 1:20 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 11, 2018 at 2:00 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 11, 2018 at 10:40 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Mandosa8 - December 11, 2018 at 10:13 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 11, 2018 at 5:26 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Vicki Q - December 16, 2018 at 6:00 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 16, 2018 at 8:33 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 16, 2018 at 8:35 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Vicki Q - December 17, 2018 at 6:15 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by DeistPaladin - December 17, 2018 at 6:42 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by GUBU - December 19, 2018 at 6:57 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 17, 2018 at 1:06 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 18, 2018 at 9:53 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 18, 2018 at 10:37 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Vicki Q - December 18, 2018 at 1:25 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 18, 2018 at 4:23 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Amarok - December 19, 2018 at 3:24 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Vicki Q - December 20, 2018 at 1:31 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 20, 2018 at 1:47 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 17, 2018 at 1:14 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 17, 2018 at 6:48 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 19, 2018 at 5:15 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 19, 2018 at 10:36 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Angrboda - December 19, 2018 at 11:01 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 19, 2018 at 12:33 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 19, 2018 at 12:42 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 19, 2018 at 11:18 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 19, 2018 at 1:20 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 19, 2018 at 9:26 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 19, 2018 at 12:58 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 19, 2018 at 2:31 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 19, 2018 at 3:59 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 10:20 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 19, 2018 at 11:57 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2018 at 11:25 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 11:33 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2018 at 11:38 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 12:54 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Bucky Ball - December 20, 2018 at 5:56 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 20, 2018 at 12:57 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 2:05 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 12:58 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 20, 2018 at 1:10 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2018 at 1:22 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Angrboda - December 20, 2018 at 2:31 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 2:53 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Angrboda - December 21, 2018 at 2:03 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 21, 2018 at 11:28 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Bucky Ball - December 21, 2018 at 12:40 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 20, 2018 at 2:35 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Amarok - December 20, 2018 at 10:36 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Vicki Q - December 21, 2018 at 11:20 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 20, 2018 at 5:24 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Drich - December 21, 2018 at 11:11 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Jehanne - December 21, 2018 at 9:40 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Bucky Ball - December 21, 2018 at 6:37 am
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Fake Messiah - December 21, 2018 at 1:04 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by Bucky Ball - December 21, 2018 at 1:26 pm
RE: Would They Die for a Lie? - by The Grand Nudger - December 27, 2018 at 11:10 pm

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