Would They Die for a Lie?

[Drich]

Drich,

The Wiki article is representative of the consensus view among modern scholars.  Yes, the Romans sometimes persecuted some Christians, namely, those who were causing the Empire problems and/or who, ostensibly, refused submission to it.  They treated other religious and/or political groups the exact same way, though.  In that sense, the early Christians (which were never a unified group to begin with) were hardly "special".

Dawn

ah, no.  the wiki page represents the collective knowledge of popular culture. as majority rules on wiki. wi·ki
/ˈwikē/
noun

1. a website that allows collaborative editing of its content and structure by its users.
   

Meaning if enough people think this for this page it makes this true...

What you do not understand or pretending not to understand is I have an IMPERIAL ORDER FROM THAT TIME this is not a biblical reference this is not something I made up it is a letter most ignore or know nothing about. but it is a vetted documented peice or rare 1st century Roman History. This is a regional governor asking the emperor of Rome at the time was it ok to kill admited christians including women and children. The Emperor Himself not scholars not wiki not some pop cultur belief of what happened 2000 years ago.. do you understand the man in chage of the whole of rome 2000 years ago wrote a letter sealed and made an offical ruling it was ok to kill any admitted christian. Again this contradicts your wiki page i know. but the verified words of this governor and the emperor of rome verify the torture and murder of christs by the state for not worshiping the emporer as they do their God.

here is a translated version of the letter this time read it!!!

Pliny, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.
Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.

This invalidates everything your wiki page says. Again tetery material verses primary source... Expert speculation about 2000 years ago verse a writen decree on the same subject from the time period in question. The verified written decree will always trump speculation 2000 years removed from said events.

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In this specific case there is no doubt the primary source material trumps the conjecture of the wiki page, as it is a direct source that contradicts the wiki page conclusions.

That said There is no speculation in the 1st century letter from pliny the younger to the emperor.

He/Governor Pliny directly asks is it ok to kill Christians in the way he does Eg( people who are directly caught or will not deny the faith/including women.) This by itself proves persecution of the 1st century church, as these acts alone perpetrated on any other group of people would indeed be identified as persecution.
believe in Christ=death deny the faith/christ=life. These people were being killed for their expressed belief in the faith. 
what's more??  

The emperor response in the affirmative in that it is ok to kill admitted christians but not if they deny the faith.

The same exact thing happened in 19th century japan. there was even a movie about it called "silence" where admitted Christ only were killed. It is hard to imagine what these admitted christian.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0490215/

This movie was sold to us as being an example of members of the christian faith being persecuted. So why then why wouldn't a 1st century decree carried out in a similar fashion not be considered to be persecution.

You like to cherry-pick your "primary" sources.  If persecution of the early Christians was as widespread as you claim, why would Pliny need to "ask" for permission to do so??

READ THE F-ING LETTER!!!

HE is not asking permission He is asking is he being severe enough!!! His his methods to the standard of Rome. Dear Emperor I kill Christians for not worshiping you as you decree but I have never done this before am I doing it right here is what I am doing now... EMperor to govnor you are doing just fine. if they deny christ and worship me let them go if the persist in worshiping God.. kill them.

Retard... That is persecution. it is empire wide decree. Again granted 2nd century it got worse. but Rome was still murdering people for believing in Jesus