Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?

[Vicki Q]

@Vicki Q


 My fault; I didn't realise you were a  Christian apologist. I simply would not have bothered had I realised.

It's clear we have very different positions about Jesus as messiah. I except the Jewish position, which I think is unambiguous.

<snip>

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/652947.Paul

 A N Wilson is one of my three favourite historians. The other Two are Marina Warner and Peter Ackroyd

Not a Xian apologist, more of a Xian seeker. Where arguments are good, I change my views, but I will argue my current beliefs as that's the best way to get them tested. I have no intention of trying to change your position, but wanted to explore Messainic views from a Jewish perspective without getting dogpiled. But clearly that's not going to happen.

We agree that Xian views on Judaism have been too wide of the mark for too long. The Third Quest scholars are looking to put that right, and winning ground rapidly. I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. I was aware of the information you provided, but mostly from 3rd Quest scholars, and it was refreshing to see the same information presented in the same way as they were doing, but from a fully Judaic perspective.

I have read books by A.N.Wilson and I'd bet a fair bit of money I've read that one.

The extent to which Paul influenced Xianity is heavily debated, with this being an exhaustive read concluding that Paul was a follower of Christ, not a founder of Xianity. Certainly Xianity had been going for a while before Paul got to have any influence at all on it.

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And yet Matthew 28:16, Mark 16:14, and Luke 24:33 have Jesus appear to the eleven.

<snip>

And also there is the problem with the names of the Apostles. The canonical lists of the Twelve do not agree in detail, nor do manuscripts of single gospels. If the Twelve were as important as church rhetoric would suggest, how is it possible that such uncertainty should exist even upon the point of who they were? Can we imagine early American histories in which the lists of presidents did not agree? And, of course Cephas of Paul's writings and Simon Peter are not the same character.

The Twelve is a technical term. Here's Wikipedia and Brittanica and BBC with more detail. There is no debate as to whether it is a thing, you will notice.


The evidence is multiple attestation of sources and forms, embarrassment, and tradition flow. See J.P.Meier 'A Marginal Jew' vol 3 ch 26 for a tediously thorough examination of the evidence*. That there are occasions in which Twelve could have been used, but as it happens wasn't, is not significant as evidence.


I would agree that Jesus likes to do the New Moses thing, but

they both get a visit from their relatives who both have a suggestion that he was overworked and needed to share the burdens of leadership.

Where is the evidence for this event in Jesus' life?

Paul uses the term Twelve in 1 Cor 15:5. 

Peter and Cephas are the same Wiki again

*ibid p 139 referencing Cephas in 1 Cor 15:5 'practically no-one has ever denied that Cephas was a disciple of Jesus during the public ministry, and most critics would admit that he already had the name Cephas/Peter (“Rock”) during that time'.

As I said, Matthew is fully entitled to use that term in his writing, even if he and others choose to use eleven numerically at other times. Not a problem.