WARNING: LONG POST
Hey salty thanks for taking the time to respond. In these discussions it always helps to see exactly where the person lies in their beliefs. I think it is a nice idea that those who are ignorant of Christ but live a good life will receive salvation.
However I think that Acts 17 disagrees with that sentiment. I would recommend reading the whole account for the proper context verse 30 I think says a lot.
Ac 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (NKJV).
When Paul is referring to ignorance I believe he is commenting about their lack of knowledge of God. Some of these same people may have been following godly standards but is that really enough? Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.
The wages of sin is death ( Romans 6:23) and without Christ we do not have a sacrifice for our sins. Now depending on your belief there are several ways you can receive this forgiveness. The two popular ones I believe are baptism or accepting Jesus as your savior in prayer etc.
However where in the Bible does God make allowance for those who are without Christ after Jesus death? Before Jesus God seems to have allowed for more ignorance on the part of people but the standard now seems to be raised.
I am curious as to where you got the idea, although I prefer it, that those who don't know the Bible/Jesus but live in a good way will still receive salvation.
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I appreciate your insight into how/why God would punish the temporal acts with eternal consequences. The problem I have with that though is unless the people truly just do not care at all about what is right I think they may change with further instruction. According to the Bible on the day of judgment every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
However at that point it will be too late for those but for those like me that knowledge, that empirical experience of seeing Christ is precisely what we would have needed to believe in the first place. If Hell was simply meant for those who abused others in this life I would be more for it but still hesitant. It would at least seem a lot more appropriate than the damnation of those who may live a good life but are without Christ.
I know you mentioned those ignorant of scripture but there are many atheists who may choose to live a very moral life that due to their rejection of scripture will suffer for eternity.
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As far as God revealing himself to me I can assure you it has not occurred at least in a way that I can recognize. My problem with God being revealed to me is I do not see why I should trust the Bible as a reliable source in the first place. One of the largest problems with the New Testament deals with the idea of outside sources.
According to scripture we have a literal intrusion into history by God himself. God himself essentially walked/interacted on earth directly with people for about 30-33 years of time. During this time he healed the sick, raised the dead, and in John it says he did many more things than were written but their volume would fill so many books that the world may not even be able to contain them. Now of course John may be exaggerating with that last statement but I think we can understand his point.
My problem is that we have a figure that did so many miraculous works yet we have no corroborating testimony of these works outside of scripture. To further complicate the problem his twelve apostles don't have any extra-biblical sources talking about the miracles they performed either. It is highly likely that overall the apostles did many more miracles combined than Christ ever did yet we have no sources.
In fact if I am not mistaken outside of the church fathers writing later on we don't have anything really except on James from Josephus, Paul, Peter, and mentions of a figure called Christ that a group of Christians claimed to follow. For someone like me the probability of a higher power being behind a religion that has a lot of historical issues seems unlikely. For people like me it would not be that hard for God to convince me that he is real and what his will is. I am not asking for much from a being who was strong enough to cause the worlds to come into existence.
As far as Israel still turning their back on God after seeing the signs I would at least like my shot at seeing those signs as well. Just because Israel failed to follow supposedly the only God that showed signs doesn't mean others would. It seems odd that Israel truly turned away so easily but reasoning does not seem to be their strongest suit in scripture.
If I believed again I would definitely have to change my life's direction. People thought I was a good Christian before but to be honest I could have done a lot more. If I became one again my life would probably go as follows.
1. Establish a charity to fight some world problem such as hunger/clean water.
2. Rally with organizations, churches, and almost anyone to try and get support to fix the problem.
3. Fix peoples physical problems first and then talk to them and God but even if they don't want to listen I would still help them with their other problems.
4. Die
There would be no other logical choice in my mind then something close to what I listed above. I assure you though I would likely still go to Hell for one glaring issue. Ultimately if the Bible is true from what I can see I would never be able to love God. God in my mind is the source of the problem of Hell and other atrocities which make it hard/next to impossible for me to not lie if I said I loved him.
I would ultimately try to save others from HIM not themselves. It is his wrath that is going to be what ultimately casts them into Hell. God ultimately holds all the cards and do as he pleases. Due to this ultimately Hell is God's fault and for creating that in the first place that makes him morally reprehensible in my mind. God would know this and in my belief cast me into Hell.
I would not even love Jesus either because he and his father are one( depending on your theology). Ultimately either way I am probably condemned. This is of course my current viewpoint and what the future holds is anyone's guess.
Hey salty thanks for taking the time to respond. In these discussions it always helps to see exactly where the person lies in their beliefs. I think it is a nice idea that those who are ignorant of Christ but live a good life will receive salvation.
However I think that Acts 17 disagrees with that sentiment. I would recommend reading the whole account for the proper context verse 30 I think says a lot.
Ac 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (NKJV).
When Paul is referring to ignorance I believe he is commenting about their lack of knowledge of God. Some of these same people may have been following godly standards but is that really enough? Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.
The wages of sin is death ( Romans 6:23) and without Christ we do not have a sacrifice for our sins. Now depending on your belief there are several ways you can receive this forgiveness. The two popular ones I believe are baptism or accepting Jesus as your savior in prayer etc.
However where in the Bible does God make allowance for those who are without Christ after Jesus death? Before Jesus God seems to have allowed for more ignorance on the part of people but the standard now seems to be raised.
I am curious as to where you got the idea, although I prefer it, that those who don't know the Bible/Jesus but live in a good way will still receive salvation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate your insight into how/why God would punish the temporal acts with eternal consequences. The problem I have with that though is unless the people truly just do not care at all about what is right I think they may change with further instruction. According to the Bible on the day of judgment every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
However at that point it will be too late for those but for those like me that knowledge, that empirical experience of seeing Christ is precisely what we would have needed to believe in the first place. If Hell was simply meant for those who abused others in this life I would be more for it but still hesitant. It would at least seem a lot more appropriate than the damnation of those who may live a good life but are without Christ.
I know you mentioned those ignorant of scripture but there are many atheists who may choose to live a very moral life that due to their rejection of scripture will suffer for eternity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as God revealing himself to me I can assure you it has not occurred at least in a way that I can recognize. My problem with God being revealed to me is I do not see why I should trust the Bible as a reliable source in the first place. One of the largest problems with the New Testament deals with the idea of outside sources.
According to scripture we have a literal intrusion into history by God himself. God himself essentially walked/interacted on earth directly with people for about 30-33 years of time. During this time he healed the sick, raised the dead, and in John it says he did many more things than were written but their volume would fill so many books that the world may not even be able to contain them. Now of course John may be exaggerating with that last statement but I think we can understand his point.
My problem is that we have a figure that did so many miraculous works yet we have no corroborating testimony of these works outside of scripture. To further complicate the problem his twelve apostles don't have any extra-biblical sources talking about the miracles they performed either. It is highly likely that overall the apostles did many more miracles combined than Christ ever did yet we have no sources.
In fact if I am not mistaken outside of the church fathers writing later on we don't have anything really except on James from Josephus, Paul, Peter, and mentions of a figure called Christ that a group of Christians claimed to follow. For someone like me the probability of a higher power being behind a religion that has a lot of historical issues seems unlikely. For people like me it would not be that hard for God to convince me that he is real and what his will is. I am not asking for much from a being who was strong enough to cause the worlds to come into existence.
As far as Israel still turning their back on God after seeing the signs I would at least like my shot at seeing those signs as well. Just because Israel failed to follow supposedly the only God that showed signs doesn't mean others would. It seems odd that Israel truly turned away so easily but reasoning does not seem to be their strongest suit in scripture.
If I believed again I would definitely have to change my life's direction. People thought I was a good Christian before but to be honest I could have done a lot more. If I became one again my life would probably go as follows.
1. Establish a charity to fight some world problem such as hunger/clean water.
2. Rally with organizations, churches, and almost anyone to try and get support to fix the problem.
3. Fix peoples physical problems first and then talk to them and God but even if they don't want to listen I would still help them with their other problems.
4. Die
There would be no other logical choice in my mind then something close to what I listed above. I assure you though I would likely still go to Hell for one glaring issue. Ultimately if the Bible is true from what I can see I would never be able to love God. God in my mind is the source of the problem of Hell and other atrocities which make it hard/next to impossible for me to not lie if I said I loved him.
I would ultimately try to save others from HIM not themselves. It is his wrath that is going to be what ultimately casts them into Hell. God ultimately holds all the cards and do as he pleases. Due to this ultimately Hell is God's fault and for creating that in the first place that makes him morally reprehensible in my mind. God would know this and in my belief cast me into Hell.
I would not even love Jesus either because he and his father are one( depending on your theology). Ultimately either way I am probably condemned. This is of course my current viewpoint and what the future holds is anyone's guess.
