Hell - Where is the idea of justice?

[salty]

WARNING: LONG POST

Hey salty thanks for taking the time to respond. In these discussions it always helps to see exactly where the person lies in their beliefs. I think it is a nice idea that those who are ignorant of Christ but live a good life will receive salvation.

However I think that Acts 17 disagrees with that sentiment. I would recommend reading the whole account for the proper context verse 30 I think says a lot.

Ac 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (NKJV).

When Paul is referring to ignorance I believe he is commenting about their lack of knowledge of God. Some of these same people may have been following godly standards but is that really enough? Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.

The wages of sin is death ( Romans 6:23) and without Christ we do not have a sacrifice for our sins. Now depending on your belief there are several ways you can receive this forgiveness. The two popular ones I believe are baptism or accepting Jesus as your savior in prayer etc.

However where in the Bible does God make allowance for those who are without Christ after Jesus death? Before Jesus God seems to have allowed for more ignorance on the part of people but the standard now seems to be raised.

I am curious as to where you got the idea, although I prefer it, that those who don't know the Bible/Jesus but live in a good way will still receive salvation.

I read Acts 17:30 and read around it for context. I too believe that if you have any kind of access to the Bible, to Christians, to people of faith that can teach you about a God that is not contained in temples, then you have been given the chance to receive salvation through prayer and living a life to honor the Lord.

Allow me to emphasize that someone living in today's age with technology, who is simply "a good person" isn't enough, I agree that they must receive Jesus Christ as their savior. I am specifically speaking of people that were born and raised in remote situations where the message of Christ was not shared, but these people lived according to the law in their hearts, their conscience, and by this law they will be judged. I believe that some of them will be saved because they have repentant hearts and would have followed the Lord had they known his name. I believe others will perish because they were self-seeking and unrepentant for their past. I do not stake any of their salvation on works, but on the grace that God has for people who are in ignorance and doing what they can to live right.

I pull these ideas from the book of Romans, chapter 2: "But because of your stubbornnes and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed. God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:5-8 NIV

In this verse I believe that God is laying the grounds for men that did not have the law, but can still be declared righteous in God's sight upon his gracious judgment of their lives as they were people who were similar to Job, never knowing the name of Jesus Christ, but still abiding by the laws that God has placed on our hearts. His mercy is not based on any works, so let us not confuse a "good" person as mentioned above for a person who does good works. As Isaiah 64:6 says, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf and like the wind our sins sweep us away." It is the person that does not stray from the path of living a good life that is declared righteous by the Lord's mercy, a person that does not see themselves as worthy.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness and their thoughts now accusing now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ as my gospel declares." Romans 3:12-16

This verse tells us that Gentiles who were unaware of Jewish customs still fulfilled the law by living according to the standards written on their hearts. This standard creates in them a conscience that will bear witness accusing them when they are wrong and defending them when they are right. On the day of judgment there will be a similar situation, all people's lives will be laid bare and the Lord will declare people righteous through his grace! I believe that people who lived in ingnorance even after the death of Christ, will not be disqualified and though you may disagree, neither of us will know until the end.

I appreciate your insight into how/why God would punish the temporal acts with eternal consequences. The problem I have with that though is unless the people truly just do not care at all about what is right I think they may change with further instruction. According to the Bible on the day of judgment every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Yes the Lord will have his way.

However at that point it will be too late for those but for those like me that knowledge, that empirical experience of seeing Christ is precisely what we would have needed to believe in the first place. If Hell was simply meant for those who abused others in this life I would be more for it but still hesitant. It would at least seem a lot more appropriate than the damnation of those who may live a good life but are without Christ.

There will not be many left to personally witness Christ's arrival, the many woes and trials that will occur before he comes will kill most of us. Yet during this time there will be plenty of signs for people like you, who have knowledge of the Bible that the end is closer than ever before. Also, evil will be allowed to run a powerful course, which will change hearts immediately. What I mean by this, is some people's loved ones will be killed before their eyes for refusing to deny Christ. Satan will in turn make those loved ones his enemies, as they will finally understand the nature of evil and they will fight it.

We know that the mind can be changed in a moment, all a person would need to do is feel remorse for the evil they've committed and believe that Jesus saves and they will be spared. The decision is so simple that millions will make it when the Lord's wrath begins to appear, when they feel the earthquakes, when their cars are being crushed, when the waves hit the shores, they will change and be saved in an instant. Voltair, the real difficulty is trying to convince people to accept Christ now, when things are going well and there is no threat that people can easily perceive. The real difficulty is helping people understand that their death could come at any time.

I know you mentioned those ignorant of scripture but there are many atheists who may choose to live a very moral life that due to their rejection of scripture will suffer for eternity.

Yes, you're right. There are many people that appear upstanding people who are not ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they simply reject it. The issue is that by rejecting Jesus, they are in fact rejecting the need to repent for what they have done in their lives, they are also rejecting God's standards for their lives, the path that he states is righteous and finally, they are rejecting the sacrifice that was made to bring them in God's home, so that he could be reconciled with them. Then these very people say that God is cruel because he gives them what they want, he allows them to reject him which sends them into damnation, a place established to punish Lucifer and his followers, because the very humans that want God's mercy after it's already too late have been following Lucifer and will follow him to his doom.

I think the issue with rejecting the message is that many people will reject it without giving it a proper evaluation, they will consider the sins of the people to be the sins of the God in question. Using the abuse of children by men of clergy as a reason to not come to Christ will not be an excuse, grace will not be extended to such a person, because it is clear that they can take note of other people's sins, but forget their own, that kind of proud heart, that is not humbled by the evils within themselves has already comdemned themselves by condemning those clergyman. This does not mean their behavior should be condoned, it means that their behavior reflects a person struggling with sin, and the Bible declares that we all struggle with sin and that we all fall short of God's glory. If people want to reject the message of Christ, let it be after a good measure of study and let it be with respect, if the message is rejected in anger, hatred or fear, it is only proof that the message is correct and that the sinful nature is hostile toward God.

As far as God revealing himself to me I can assure you it has not occurred at least in a way that I can recognize. My problem with God being revealed to me is I do not see why I should trust the Bible as a reliable source in the first place. One of the largest problems with the New Testament deals with the idea of outside sources.

According to scripture we have a literal intrusion into history by God himself. God himself essentially walked/interacted on earth directly with people for about 30-33 years of time. During this time he healed the sick, raised the dead, and in John it says he did many more things than were written but their volume would fill so many books that the world may not even be able to contain them. Now of course John may be exaggerating with that last statement but I think we can understand his point.

My problem is that we have a figure that did so many miraculous works yet we have no corroborating testimony of these works outside of scripture. To further complicate the problem his twelve apostles don't have any extra-biblical sources talking about the miracles they performed either. It is highly likely that overall the apostles did many more miracles combined than Christ ever did yet we have no sources.

In fact if I am not mistaken outside of the church fathers writing later on we don't have anything really except on James from Josephus, Paul, Peter, and mentions of a figure called Christ that a group of Christians claimed to follow. For someone like me the probability of a higher power being behind a religion that has a lot of historical issues seems unlikely. For people like me it would not be that hard for God to convince me that he is real and what his will is. I am not asking for much from a being who was strong enough to cause the worlds to come into existence.

You're in a real situation. You want to base your faith on outside sources that confirm the miracles of the apostles and Jesus. You want the Lord to reveal himself to you by making everything match-up and all the dates aligning, you're not asking much, you're just asking for more proof because what has been given is not sufficient. Does this come from exegetical research? Can't faith come in small packages, can't it build itself up in your life, one event at a time?

Have you ever considered that God is showing himself in our discussion, that he is trying to make himself apparent to you? As someone who has read Scripture have you ever considered that the enemy of God is telling you what is considered proof of God's existence and what isn't? Do you know how I knew God was real? My mother would constantly forgive my step-father for mistreating, never bad-mouthed my father for abandoning us, and encouraged me to forgive him when he was ready to be my dad again. How could she be this way? How could she do these things? She told me it was Christ, that he had forgiven her. That was one way he revealed himself to me in my childhood. If you think that the Bible, history and outside historical sources are the only way for God to reveal himself, then you're not seeking him, you're seeking the "idea" of God, not the living breathing holy being named Jesus Christ. I fear the more you seek the "idea", the less likely you will find him.

As far as Israel still turning their back on God after seeing the signs I would at least like my shot at seeing those signs as well. Just because Israel failed to follow supposedly the only God that showed signs doesn't mean others would. It seems odd that Israel truly turned away so easily but reasoning does not seem to be their strongest suit in scripture.

I just want you to know that I like you a lot, you're so real and you really do have a deep understanding of Scripture. Everytime I read Exodus I was so overwhelmed with their rejection of God that I was brought to tears...how could they be like that? But over time I realized they simply represent the parts of us that are in rebellion to God, the parts of us that are hypocrital, nagging, complaining, unkind, unfair and unrepentant. The Lord's purpose for sharing the history of his people is so that we will be aware that any struggle we face is something that has been faced before and there are people that conquer these struggles and people that don't. It's totally fine for you to struggle for you to doubt and for you to not understand, but if you decide that seeking God isn't worth your time, if you decide that trying to get your God moment is a bad idea, then you're not struggling, you've simply given up. If you haven't given up Voltair, your God moment will come, even if you don't think the Bible is reliable, even if you think evolution is real, if there's a piece of you that wants to see God. You will see him, I just wonder if you'll be willing to follow him when he appears?

If I believed again I would definitely have to change my life's direction. People thought I was a good Christian before but to be honest I could have done a lot more. If I became one again my life would probably go as follows.

1. Establish a charity to fight some world problem such as hunger/clean water.
2. Rally with organizations, churches, and almost anyone to try and get support to fix the problem.
3. Fix peoples physical problems first and then talk to them and God but even if they don't want to listen I would still help them with their other problems.
4. Die

You can do these things now, without being a Christian. There is no religious restriction on helping people, loving them, caring for them, showing them how to make money, how to create something, how to run a business. Also, this kind of behavior doesn't make you a better Christian, not everyone is called to go out into the world and serve in this way, some are called to be mothers, others are called to be helpers, to be workers, to be janitors, to be leaders, to be teachers, to be friends. "There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men." 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 NIV. If you came back to the Lord, Voltair the most important thing for you to do would be to love people by helping them with the resources you have available. You don't have to worry about the spreading the gospel until you're ready, you don't have to worry about rushing to change the world until the Lord instills a desire in you and gives you an avenue to achieve it. You don't have to wear a Jesus hat or have a Jesus fish on your car, these are all meaningless ways to show devotion to the Lord. Real devotion comes from within: "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." James 1:22 NIV Devote yourself to knowing God's standards so that you can check your behavior, then everything else will fall into place.

There would be no other logical choice in my mind then something close to what I listed above. I assure you though I would likely still go to Hell for one glaring issue. Ultimately if the Bible is true from what I can see I would never be able to love God. God in my mind is the source of the problem of Hell and other atrocities which make it hard/next to impossible for me to not lie if I said I loved him.

Thank you for being honest and yet so gentle. This is what I thought you were struggling with. As I was eating my lunch I wondered if you would ever be able to see past the justice that God deals to the world and the place of separation, called Hell. Allow me to tell you how the Lord revealed his justice to me.

When I was around 15 years old I loved to write stories, I still love them, but I'm not as devoted to them as I was at that age. Anyway, I found that while creating the story I would need to kill characters off, for different reasons, some would die because I knew what they had done to my other characters and it was time for their reckoning, others would die because my main character would literally be unable to grow, to flourish if they lived, and some would die because of the faults of other characters. I could have saved them, but I knew it was their time and they needed to go. If my characters said to me, "How could you do this? Why are you doing this? Why can't everyone just be happy?" I would answer: "I have a destination for this story, you characters cannot see what my plan is and how wonderful things will be when it has been achieved, you can only see what's happened around you." And when I considered the whole situation like that I found a new level of trust in God. God knows what people have been doing in secret and in public, he knows how people have suffered, he knows what people are thinking and planning, and he uses his justice on any because he does it with perfection. He won't let someone leave before their time nothing escapes him, nothing puzzles him. He is like an author, bringing about the climax and resolution of this novel.

I would ultimately try to save others from HIM not themselves. It is his wrath that is going to be what ultimately casts them into Hell. God ultimately holds all the cards and do as he pleases. Due to this ultimately Hell is God's fault and for creating that in the first place that makes him morally reprehensible in my mind. God would know this and in my belief cast me into Hell.

The first rebellion happened among the angels and hell was created as punishment for them, next man was tempted to disobey and man chose to disobey, therefore making two sides again; God's & Lucifer's. The Lord quickly made a way for man to be righteous in his sight through offerings which would cover sin, until the Lord was ready to send Jesus into the world. The Bible tells us that God doesn't want any to perish. Hell is not God's "fault" but the result of the disorder that Lucifer created when he convinced others to follow him. Let's keep in mind, Lucifer is not a temporary creature, he doesn't get sick, he doesn't get tired, he is eternal, like the other angels, therefore a place of punishment for him, will need to be eternal, it cannot one day cease because then Lucifer will return and begin corrupting all over again and then the work of Christ was for nothing.

You can try to tell people not to accept Jesus because of the bad that you see in him, but if your parents cannot save you, then you cannot save others. We both know that each person must choose for themselves, they must either stand for Christ or stand against him. "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons." 1 Corinthians 10:21 NIV

I would not even love Jesus either because he and his father are one( depending on your theology). Ultimately either way I am probably condemned. This is of course my current viewpoint and what the future holds is anyone's guess.

Thank you for being so willing to share your thoughts, in such a polite and understanding method. I know that some of my words may seem harsh, but I am simply mentioning my opinion. Again, I think you're honest and clear with yourself, I think that you still have a little part of you that feels hell is a real place and you cannot see how a "loving" God would send anyone to a place of torment, but I need you to step outside human torment and realize that Lucifer is the first person that will be cast into hell and that when people follow Lucifer they must share in his punishment, the Lord is offering anyone who will believe the oppurtunity to receive the inheritence of Christ instead of the punishment of Satan, and he's showing his love by not forcing us to choose him, just like your family is showing their love by respecting your decision and allowing you to work out your beliefs.

Whoa...I need a nap.