Christianity is heading for a full allegorization

[Ferrocyanide]

Well, let's consider what Chalmers proposed. Imagine a conscious person. Then imagine another being that is physically identical in every way with that conscious person. The question is whether it is coherent to say the construct is not conscious. I don't believe it is.

For example, if the conscious person waxes eloquent about their experience of the color red, so will the zombie. If the conscious person goes into a long discussion about their qualia, so will the zombie. if the conscious person acknowledges Mary might have learned something when she saw red, so would the zombie. In every single physical situation, the two will be *exactly* the same in how they respond.

And no, I don't think it is possible for that to occur without the 'zombie' actually being conscious. At some point in some way, there would be something where a non-conscious being would react differently than a conscious one and *that* would be a physical difference between the two.

The zombie is meant to be a thought experiment, nothing more. Chalmers' point is that, logically speaking, one can have all the "outward appearance" of a conscious person and behave like such, and yet still lack qualia. If it's even logically possible (even if perhaps not metaphysically possible) for a p-zombie to exist, then this lends credence to the hard problem.

What is qualia?

What do you guys mean by zombie? Are you guys saying that it is a human that is missing the magical “soul”?

polymath257 mentioned something about a conscious human and then you have another human where all the right atoms are in the right place. In other words, we have a human duplicator. We put human 1 into the human duplicator and it creates an identical copy: human 2.

Human 2 doesn’t have the magical soul? It is missing consciousness (maybe)?


polymath257 says:

As another example, temperature is 'explained' by the kinetic energy of the molecules in a thing. if we ask for a 'mechanism', we will get into trouble, though. There is no 'mechanism' linking motion of molecules and temperature. Instead, the temperature *is* the motion of those molecules. And, from that description, we can derive the various properties of temperature.

I think you guys are thinking graphically. You are imagining that atoms/molecules are little balls moving around randomly and you want to call the average speed the temperature.

So far, it sounds like nobody is having difficulty in understanding this.

polymath257 says:

For example, electric current is described as the motion of electrons.

Again, I think you guys are thinking graphically. This helps you understand the natural world that surrounds you.
You imagine electrons as dots or balls going inside a metal wire.
So far, everyone is satisfied with this imagery.

polymath257 says:

But now, what is the mechanism of electrons being charged?

In other words, what is moving, what is happening to create that electric field + the mass? We don’t know. We are missing the imagery.


polymath257 says:

If I asked what else is needed to 'explain' what could possibly be required? When I say that mass produces a curvature of spacetime and that *is* gravity, is a mechanism for the production of that curvature required? NO. The explanation *is* the correlation between mass and curvature.

Again, I think you guys are thinking graphically.
You imagine a plane (flat infinite sheet). You imagine the Earth pushing down on that sheet and creating a kind of 3D parabola.
In your brain, you make a connection between that graphics and the gravity that you observe and you become satisfied.


As for consciousness, maybe you guys have the imagery as to what a neuron looks like and how neurotransmitters pass through the gates but I think you guys are having a hard time making a connection between that and consciousness.

polymath257 is having a hard time making that connection but thinks that the signal transmissions in the brain is the consciousness. Once you interrupt the machine(brain), the consciousness stops.
Also, what if I have a tank of hydrogen. Does the movement of all the hydrogen molecules represent some consciousness?

I’m not sure about GrandizerII.
Are you saying that consciousness is unrelated to the brain? It looks like you accept that you can have zombies.