Russia and Ukraine

[The Grand Nudger]

Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru

The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

Correct.  Any notion that the war can be stopped short of a russian defeat is fantasy, just as the assumption that russia could do what it's been doing forever is a fantasy.   

I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

See above, re fantasy.  Russia already had crimea and donbas and luhansk, and they invaded anyway.  You're asking ukrainians to fall on a sword for you..up in battlefield canadia....which is at least honest and not some waffling bullshit about peace or the great western satan..but it's not as if those places being under russian hands stopped the russian invasion last year. Meanwhile, there's literally no way that russia comes away from this..even in victory over ukraine.... without looking like a complete and total loser. That ship sailed.