RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 11:45 am
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2023 at 11:51 am by The Grand Nudger.)
The beauty of hypothetical stipulations. We find ourselves in some future situation where the issue has been demonstratively settled. There is no free will. The concern in the hypothetical being that this could amount to living a lie, or having lived a lie. I think, at worst, we found out we were wrong about yet another thing. The experience should be familiar to us by now.
Might we then choose to live as though we had a free will knowing that we did not? I brought up theological fatalism in this thread (or maybe another?) recently. I think that what people do in response to finding out that they were not actually free to x as they thought they were is to accept some form of fatalism, if not outright absurdism. We've vacillated over the entirety of our written history on this issue - there's no reason to think it began then, and that larger negotiation plays out in our own lives, intimately. We seem to have an instinctive need to push and measure those boundaries. To understand the world we live in. To exert control, by whatever means.
One of my favorite comments on the issue I picked up here, I modify it, though I can't recall who it was. The notion that..at least in the sense of a classical free will or even a christian free will - we find ourselves living in a world where it was more salient to prevent us from freely willing to jump to the moon than to commit horrific acts. We weren't satisfied with that state of affairs, though, so we created surveillance and support systems. We built rockets to take us to the moon.
So, no, I don't think it would mean that we lived a lie nor would I expect us to choose to live one. We've been in that place before and we've been able to conceive of ourselves and our world without a free will and still function as a species, as a society. Hell, as an organizing tool, fatalism is top notch. We sneak it kisses everytime we think about our destiny. Private destiny, national destiny. As powerful as those things are there have been people (and still are people) that accept some form of fatalism but rage against it's inevitability. Try to throw every wrench at every gear. Our boundary setting and pushing is full of lost causes.
Might we then choose to live as though we had a free will knowing that we did not? I brought up theological fatalism in this thread (or maybe another?) recently. I think that what people do in response to finding out that they were not actually free to x as they thought they were is to accept some form of fatalism, if not outright absurdism. We've vacillated over the entirety of our written history on this issue - there's no reason to think it began then, and that larger negotiation plays out in our own lives, intimately. We seem to have an instinctive need to push and measure those boundaries. To understand the world we live in. To exert control, by whatever means.
One of my favorite comments on the issue I picked up here, I modify it, though I can't recall who it was. The notion that..at least in the sense of a classical free will or even a christian free will - we find ourselves living in a world where it was more salient to prevent us from freely willing to jump to the moon than to commit horrific acts. We weren't satisfied with that state of affairs, though, so we created surveillance and support systems. We built rockets to take us to the moon.
So, no, I don't think it would mean that we lived a lie nor would I expect us to choose to live one. We've been in that place before and we've been able to conceive of ourselves and our world without a free will and still function as a species, as a society. Hell, as an organizing tool, fatalism is top notch. We sneak it kisses everytime we think about our destiny. Private destiny, national destiny. As powerful as those things are there have been people (and still are people) that accept some form of fatalism but rage against it's inevitability. Try to throw every wrench at every gear. Our boundary setting and pushing is full of lost causes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
