Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 7, 2025, 7:36 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 3.67 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Someone debate me
RE: Someone debate me
(August 28, 2012 at 10:14 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Speaking of mini superheroes, it might be instructive to consider a fictional mini god, like Superman. Although Superman is much more powerful than any human, he is much less (infinitely less?) omniscient and omnipotent than Yahweh is supposed to be. Clearly, the world would have less suffering with Superman in it, as long as the bad guys of the DC pantheon aren't also present. Superman might face a dilemma in balancing his good deeds against the concern that humanity might become too dependent on him to rescue them, like being more careless in construction and pollution and security, and not solving problems they could tackle without him. That is, he could be concerned about stunting humanity's potential and being a moral hazard. So he might do less than he's capable of, prioritizing things like saving the village over capping the volcano or stopping the bombing but not the bomb factories. He would have to strike a balance, using his best (not omniscient but highly aware) judgement.

I think one of the storylines did deal with this. Superman - even when going around his daily life as Clark Kent - could hear a lot of cries for help and consciously chose to ignore them if they didn't seem immediate enough. I think the point was that he would fight against suffering brought on by sudden or arbitrary events but let things take their own course otherwise. Which is why he involves hi,self more with violent crimes and natural disasters than trying to stop white-collar crimes.

(August 28, 2012 at 10:14 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: It seems clear that Superman would be acting immorally if he did not try to prevent some of the suffering that is in his power to stop, but he could be acting morally in not preventing ALL of the suffering that is in his power to stop.

Actually, that's not clear at all. The only thing that's clear is he'd be acting against his own moral principles if he did not help.

(August 28, 2012 at 10:14 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: In my opinion, answering the PoE while preserving theodicy, requires this sort of answer: that God is preventing all the suffering he can, consistent with not preventing so much suffering that it stifles our moral development or needed free will or some other highly-important good.

I think this is a very hard case to make, given the amount of suffering that seems so pointless. Superman would be a monster if he let children die by inches as they're slowly crushed by rubble after an earthquake, surely no matter his other concerns, he would save them, even if he didn't intervene in more rapid accidental deaths of children, or at least put them out of their misery.

Much harder than you'd think, because

a) It puts limits on god's power if he cannot figure out a way to prevent suffering while finding alternate ways to accomplish those moral goals.

b) He never leaves any evidence of direct intervention.

c) Never gives any indication of what those goals might be.

d) Seems to have changing priorities if he intervenes in one case while doesn't in another similar one.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:09 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cinjin - July 16, 2012 at 10:11 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Erinome - July 16, 2012 at 10:12 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:13 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Minimalist - July 16, 2012 at 10:52 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:55 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Whateverist - July 17, 2012 at 12:33 am
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 16, 2012 at 10:17 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Erinome - July 16, 2012 at 10:18 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by FemmeRealism - July 16, 2012 at 10:21 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:32 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by skb - July 20, 2012 at 4:02 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cinjin - July 20, 2012 at 4:22 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Ace Otana - July 22, 2012 at 5:07 am
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 16, 2012 at 10:28 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 16, 2012 at 10:33 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:36 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by FallentoReason - July 16, 2012 at 10:35 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by FemmeRealism - July 16, 2012 at 10:38 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:39 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Annik - July 16, 2012 at 10:39 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 16, 2012 at 10:47 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Norfolk And Chance - July 22, 2012 at 9:21 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Rayaan - July 16, 2012 at 10:44 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:45 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by FemmeRealism - July 16, 2012 at 11:15 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by jonb - July 20, 2012 at 11:49 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Annik - July 16, 2012 at 10:49 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 10:49 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Erinome - July 16, 2012 at 11:04 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - July 16, 2012 at 11:09 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 16, 2012 at 11:28 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Mister Agenda - August 27, 2012 at 2:02 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - August 27, 2012 at 2:08 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Anomalocaris - August 27, 2012 at 7:10 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 16, 2012 at 11:14 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - July 17, 2012 at 12:40 am
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 17, 2012 at 12:52 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 18, 2012 at 7:31 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - July 17, 2012 at 1:06 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Faith No More - July 17, 2012 at 1:33 am
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - July 17, 2012 at 1:58 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Tempus - July 17, 2012 at 2:10 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 18, 2012 at 6:56 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Napoléon - July 18, 2012 at 6:58 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Minimalist - July 18, 2012 at 7:01 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Simon Moon - July 18, 2012 at 7:27 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Epimethean - July 18, 2012 at 7:55 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - July 18, 2012 at 8:06 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - July 18, 2012 at 11:18 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by jonb - July 18, 2012 at 11:57 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 19, 2012 at 12:03 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Shell B - July 19, 2012 at 12:06 am
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 19, 2012 at 12:08 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Shell B - July 19, 2012 at 12:15 am
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 19, 2012 at 12:21 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Shell B - July 19, 2012 at 12:31 am
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - July 19, 2012 at 12:22 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 19, 2012 at 12:53 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Epimethean - July 19, 2012 at 9:23 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Felasco - July 19, 2012 at 9:27 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Zen Badger - July 20, 2012 at 7:29 am
RE: Someone debate me - by goddamnit - July 20, 2012 at 4:06 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - July 20, 2012 at 4:37 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Faith No More - July 20, 2012 at 4:40 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Nemo - July 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 20, 2012 at 9:41 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 20, 2012 at 10:13 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 20, 2012 at 10:14 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 21, 2012 at 9:12 am
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 21, 2012 at 10:49 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 25, 2012 at 1:15 am
RE: Someone debate me - by KnockEmOuttt - July 25, 2012 at 1:23 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Zen Badger - July 22, 2012 at 6:37 am
RE: Someone debate me - by frankiej - July 21, 2012 at 11:03 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - July 25, 2012 at 10:59 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Epimethean - July 25, 2012 at 12:33 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Whateverist - July 25, 2012 at 2:01 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - August 27, 2012 at 1:17 am
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 27, 2012 at 2:57 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - August 27, 2012 at 8:38 am
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 27, 2012 at 9:33 am
RE: Someone debate me - by pocaracas - August 27, 2012 at 9:44 am
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 27, 2012 at 10:18 am
RE: Someone debate me - by pocaracas - August 27, 2012 at 10:34 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Cinjin - August 27, 2012 at 3:00 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Thor - August 27, 2012 at 10:32 am
RE: Someone debate me - by pocaracas - August 27, 2012 at 5:19 am
RE: Someone debate me - by The Grand Nudger - August 27, 2012 at 10:07 am
RE: Someone debate me - by MysticKnight - August 27, 2012 at 1:44 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Mister Agenda - August 27, 2012 at 2:13 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - August 27, 2012 at 6:47 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cinjin - August 27, 2012 at 7:15 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Mister Agenda - August 28, 2012 at 10:14 am
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 28, 2012 at 10:57 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by padraic - August 27, 2012 at 10:32 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - August 28, 2012 at 12:29 am
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 28, 2012 at 1:35 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - August 29, 2012 at 2:56 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Thor - August 29, 2012 at 5:22 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 29, 2012 at 5:32 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Thor - August 30, 2012 at 11:42 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 30, 2012 at 11:22 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jackalope - August 30, 2012 at 11:55 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by genkaus - August 30, 2012 at 6:12 am
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 28, 2012 at 10:52 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - August 29, 2012 at 4:41 am
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 29, 2012 at 4:44 am
Someone debate me - by Categories+Sheaves - August 29, 2012 at 5:13 am
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 29, 2012 at 9:10 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Categories+Sheaves - August 29, 2012 at 4:18 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 29, 2012 at 6:17 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Faith No More - August 29, 2012 at 5:35 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Jeffonthenet - September 1, 2012 at 9:53 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 29, 2012 at 5:44 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2012 at 7:02 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Undeceived - August 29, 2012 at 7:53 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 29, 2012 at 8:09 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 29, 2012 at 8:07 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - August 30, 2012 at 3:29 am
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 30, 2012 at 6:27 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 30, 2012 at 5:02 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 30, 2012 at 5:08 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 30, 2012 at 5:22 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by greneknight - August 30, 2012 at 5:28 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Faith No More - August 30, 2012 at 11:45 am
RE: Someone debate me - by Jackalope - August 30, 2012 at 12:28 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2012 at 5:11 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - August 30, 2012 at 5:25 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 30, 2012 at 5:38 pm
RE: Someone debate me - by Cyberman - August 30, 2012 at 11:59 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What would an atheist say if someone said "Hallelujah, you're my savior man." Woah0 16 2558 September 22, 2022 at 6:35 pm
Last Post: Simon Moon
  Hilarious argument from someone I encountered in the youtube comments Heat 19 6012 April 23, 2020 at 3:32 pm
Last Post: The Architect Of Fate
  (Sensitivity required) Coming out to someone SlowCalculations 12 2536 October 27, 2019 at 6:14 am
Last Post: EgoDeath
  Can someone debunk this FPerson 162 44298 November 12, 2017 at 7:53 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
  Where to Debate Theists? Cephus 27 7888 April 13, 2017 at 8:51 pm
Last Post: Nanny
  Has the Atheism vs. Theism debate played it's course? MJ the Skeptical 49 14396 August 12, 2016 at 8:43 am
Last Post: MJ the Skeptical
  Your favorite Atheist Theist Debate? Nuda900 11 5139 February 28, 2016 at 8:08 pm
Last Post: abaris
  A great atheist debate video. Jehanne 0 1381 February 14, 2016 at 12:04 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  How can someone convert from Atheist to Religious Heat 65 14984 November 26, 2015 at 1:43 pm
Last Post: robvalue
  What you see when you win a religious debate... x3 IanHulett 15 6322 October 20, 2015 at 7:45 am
Last Post: robvalue



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)