Why would any woman want to be Christian?

[jstrodel]

Since you did not give my points detailed analysis, neither will I give your points detailed analysis. I think the passage about 50 shekels of silver is a specific case of semi-consensual sexual activity. The Hebrew word means "seize".

Actually, there is no Hebrew word for seize in there. It is "find" or "discovers" from the root מצא. A seizing would not be in the קל form anyhow, despite the root.

But I will concede that I did not read the actual text, as I should have done, and I apologize for not having done so. I was lazy, did a quick google search on the verse, and got a "God's Word Bible" that listed it as:

This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn't engaged. When the crime is discovered...

And for relying on a Christian text, I admit my error of laziness.

Here is the actual text (my translation):

For when a man shall find a young woman, a virgin that is not in the erushah [stage of marriage] (monetary contract, which is before erusin stage where he takes her), and he lays with her and they are found, and the man who lays with her gives to the father of the young woman 50 shekels...[etc]

So the verse obviously means a couple caught in the act, which may or may not be forcible, but the woman has no choice but to be his wife for the rest of her life. That will teach them!

You have probably never done a serious Bible study in your life.

Yeah, all those years in yeshivot and kollel and daf yomi were just for laughs.

As for the rest of your rant (and I refuse to spend the time necessary to correct your misunderstanding of halachah concerning the logical problem posed by this text, the correction, and the status of the woman as a result)...

...[snip]

Well, I respect your study of the Hebrew language and of Judaism. I think studying the Bible in a Christian context is different because Christians have the Holy Spirit but I respect the scholarship of Judaism (which has given the modern world the TaNaKh and preserved it). Why not consult what the Talmud says about these texts? I do not believe the Jews interpreted them literalistically, the way some fundamentalists do.

It seems that you have just proved my point concerning the text in question, which does not specify rape (actually I think we may be talking about different texts). It would be good to consult a rabbinic understand of halachah surrounding these texts in the Talmud or elsewhere.

Orthodox Jews who do not live by these texts but read them frequently do not use them to create a culture of rape. They do not interpret them the way that atheist apologists do, although Orthodox Judaism disagrees with the modern feminist understanding of sexuality in some ways.

I considered converting to Judaism and I have never seen any Jewish book (or Christian book) that has ever understood the TaNaKh to teach that rape is an acceptable way to start a marriage. That God may force fornicators to marry may be severe, but I do not see why it is morally problematic.

The Bible does not sanction rape or accept it in any way. The Bible punishes rape with death. Period.

---

I have stopped feeling sorry for you.

It's not about feelings; it's about what's right and what's wrong. If he took the time to "help" women out by making rules to protect them from their culture, he could have taken the time to instruct them against those cultural rituals. People were ignorant in primitive times, though if god existed he would not be ignorant or culturally biased, which would then make him capable of educating them. Don't tell me that he made those laws for their own protection. Oh... he had to force them to marriage to protect them from being killed... meh! Force men to not kill them instead of forcing them to marry them! Sorry, but... no I'm not sorry... that is just ridiculous.

This is stupid. I'm out.

You are saying it is not about feelings, it is about what is right and what is wrong and then you are appealing to your feelings about what is right and wrong instead of actually defending the position.

Your response to a very complex social arrangement in which marriages were commonly arranged and violence was widespread is to say simply "this is just ridiculous".

That is your feelings. None of that is self evident and none of it demonstrates what is right and wrong.