Two excellent reasons to OPPOSE gay marriage in the UK

[Tiberius]

Nice to see a fellow Brit Ok, fine. You're a libertarian, I get that, but you have to understand Tiberius, that what is right and what is fair is always subjective when the government legislates, we have that imposed upon us through popular appeal, special interest groups and righteous benevolent politicians who believe that their opinions should be taken as Bible by the rest of the population.

Right, but I don't agree with a subjective form of government. I think government should be as unbiased as possible, and personal opinions should not affect policy. Restricting marriage to just one man and one woman is unfair whether you think gay marriage (or poly marriage, incest marriage, etc.) is disgusting or not. Nobody who thinks marriage should remain between a man and a woman has ever been able to come up with a reason for keeping it that way that wasn't based on subjective personal beliefs, or complete falsehoods. They never will either, because the unfairness of the current marriage system simply isn't up for debate; it's as unfair as having non-white people separated from white people.

From the taxation system, to foreign policy, to drugs policy, to NHS policy, to the justice system. There is no such thing as an objective "fair" in a secular democracy, the utopia of "fairness" or "rightness" by which I assume you mean 'what Tiberius considers fair or right', doesn't exist.

I disagree that there is no such thing as objective fair in a secular democracy. I'd argue that secular democracy can be objectively fair, but that no secular democracy (or democracy for that matter) has ever done things right.

My imagined utopia isn't based on what I consider to be fair or right. It's based on whether or not the government should dictate how people live their lives. I'm against overbearing nanny states in almost all respects. A government does not have a right to tell me who I can marry, what I can eat, what I wear, what I can say, etc. Governments that insist they do are simply making up those rights out of thin air.

What you consider to be fair or right isn't what I consider to be fair or right. It is not necessarily fair for wealthier higher income earners to pay a higher marginal income tax rate, yet I still consider it to be right. A mother and her son marrying is not "right" according to what I perceive to be "right" and so yes, the definition of marriage is indeed unfair, and it should remain so in my opinion. I do commend your consistency though

I can't understand how you can think something is unfair yet still insist it is "right" that it happens. It violates even the most basic standard of ethics...that of the golden rule. It's so very easy for straight people to reject the notion of gay marriage; they will never have to suffer the same kind of unfairness that gay people have to put up with every day.

But everyone will never be treated as equals in a society Tiberius; a 13 year old cannot get into an 18 year rated movie unsupervised.

IMO, movie ratings are a form of censorship. Also, if you think 13 year olds aren't seeing 18+ rated movies, you are having a laugh.

I get your point about children though, but the point is, they are developing citizens; most do not have the mental capacity to understand how society functions; there is no need for them to be treated the same way as adults in some aspects of life. One can think of children as almost a form of property of the parents, up until society deems them adult enough to handle everything on their own. In the UK, that age is 16, but I reject even the notion of a static age for that sort of thing. Some children are highly independent before that age; others aren't adult enough after it.

A person who earns 150 K a year is not treated equally to a person who earns 20K in terms of taxes.

They should be. By that I mean, they should pay the same rate of tax. There is no fair justification for taxing rich people more "just because they have more". That said, I'm actually more of a fan of taxes on spending rather than on income these days.

Equality does not exist in most spheres of society, there should be no such thing as equality in the definition of marriage in my opinion.

I simply don't understand how anyone can think that an unequal society is a good society. Please explain it to me.