Pope Francis defends atheists

[pocaracas]

Care to explain how do my feelings influence such realities?

I thought such discomforting thoughts would made you open to considering other possibilities.

I don't fall for cheap tricks... sorry.

People believe, I accept that.
If what they believe in correlates with reality or not... well... that doesn't seem to be important to someone who thinks feelings are more important than reality.

Actually, I have been trying to use rational arguments for credibility of belief. True or false is not a matter of opinion. If someone thinks two plus two is five, they are wrong, no matter how sure they are that they are right.. In the end, We will find out beyond all doubt after we die. It will no longer be a matter of faith.

Actually, if someone thinks 2+2 = 5, then that is true... for that person.
If someone thinks allah is real, then that is true... for that person.
If someone thinks Jesus rose from the dead, then that is true... for that person.
Shall I go on?

Regardless of the perceived truthfulness in each individual, reality may very well not agree with it... As we can see in the case of 2+2.

Roads and boats... that didn't reach America at the time... .India (which isn't that far away) is still under the impression that the Vedas (which pre-date Christ) are valid...
Come on... if god is so awesome as abrahamists claim, then he could just present itself to all, simultaneously, have a chat, share some of the awesome knowledge.... and come back.. say, at least, once a year.... The guy did appear directly to Abraham, did he not?

That would be unequivocal.... but instead... we got a crucified jew. Not impressed.

I was explaining why Jesus did not come before when He did. It was the earliest. Why didn’t He come later? That is a good question. The Bible does not explain that, so I will not speculate.

I suppose God could appear every year to help the skeptics believe in Him. I will not speculate why He chooses not to do so. Since He does not, I guess one has to look at the over 300 verses in the Bible that foretold the details of His comin gin the flesh, the miracles He did, like rising from the dead, and eye witnesses. I have thought and investigated all these, and find them very credible. I find God through prayer and by receiving Holy Communion.

You were... and are... being apologetic.
And you accept what is written on the bible as true... remember the possible lack of correlation between truth and reality?

Please, present proof that they are possible and not just in the minds of gullible people.

The reason I listed the incorruptibles and where they are entombed is that you can go see them yourself. Otherwise, look at these photos: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/im...+of+saints

Some of those look like wax..... others do look like mummies.
The few that have their hand holding up are so waxlike.... -.-'
People see what they want to see... and some people provide what others want to see....
Yes, I'm calling those who set up those bodies deceivers.

Mummification... The ancient Egyptians did it... Why wouldn't some clerics do the same for people they thought were really important?

http://www.funerals.org/frequently-asked...-embalming
· Embalming does not preserve the human body forever; it merely delays the inevitable and natural consequences of death. There is some variation in the rate of decomposition, depending on the strength of the chemicals and methods used, and the humidity and temperature of the final resting place.
· Ambient temperature has more affect on the decomposition process than the time elapsed after death, whether or not a body has been embalmed. In a sealed casket in above-ground entombment in a warm climate, a body will decompose very rapidly.

Most of these people have been dead for hundreds of years. Most do do not look like Egyptian mummies.
Have you seen someone who has been dead several hours? I have when I worked in a hospital. The ones I saw have a slight yellow tinge on their skin. Some of the incorruptibles have pink skin and their bodies are flexible. Besides, embalming did not become a common practice until the mid-1800’s.

And that is why some of those do look like actual mummies...

Misdiagnosis... somewhat common in psychological disorders...
How did they confirm that she did in fact have parkinson's?

Why are you saying anyone who disagrees with you is crazy? Sounds like a broken record. Ad hominem attacks do not impress me.

I was under the impression that an ad hominem attack was one that attacked the person with whom I was talking.... or you. Am I attacking you?
Anyway, tons of people have parkinson's, tons pray to get well... one does get well... I call this a misdiagnosis of that one.
I'm not calling anyone crazy...

A French nun's recovery from Parkinson's disease was the miracle needed for Pope John Paul to be beatified.

Quite convenient, no?

Parkinson's disease is a progressively degenerative neurological disorder which affects the control of body movements. After four years of suffering from Parkinson’s disease, Sister Marie Simon-Pierre was completely cured some two months after the Pope passed away.
“After praying to [id est, asking for his intercession] John Paul II, the nun [Sister Marie Simon-Pierre] said, she awoke one morning, to the shock of her doctor, feeling reborn and capable of performing previously difficult tasks, such as walking and writing. “I was sick, and now I am cured,” Simon-Pierre said at a March 30, 2007, press conference in Aix-en-Provence, France. “I am cured, but it is up to the church to say whether it was a miracle or not.”
I suppose you could research her address and write her a letter. Here is a link to a video interview with her. http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play...crmas&tt=b

It is possible that she had some other problem that manifested in much the same way as parkinson's.... Then something happened and what was causing that problem went away...
Or if she really had parkinson's, she should be thoroughly studied for she may hold the key to curing other parkinson's patients.
Instead... it's a miracle... -.-'

mummies... mummies everywhere!
Not all mummies become so by artificial means!

No one tried to preserve their bodies.
For example, people like Lenin got injections of “refresher” embalming fluid. He was kept in a specially designed tomb. That was fraud. The Vatican has no reason to fake it.

yeah, sure...
Gullibility is a trait they seek in people. Congratz, you qualify!

No one expects bodies to do anything but decay. Why would anyone risk their credibility on that? There are many ways they have damaged their credibility before without that.

What's one more dummy blow to a long standing tradition of fooling people?

So... I guess this person never did a CAT scan to find out what was going on in that ear... -.-'

People do not spend thousands of dollars on hearing aids unless they have a serious hearing problem. I saw him with hearing aids and I talk to him several times after he no longer needed them. I suppose you are going to say he is crazy too?

Yes, he had a serious hearing problem... couldn't hear very well, hence a hearing aid. Did he get a CAT scan? Did he go through all the shenanigans?
A simple inflammation that prevents the ear's bones from vibrating properly could cause the hearing loss.... chronic inflammation in the ear is not unheard of.... then, one day, he takes some anti-biotic for some other problem and it fixes that inflammation as well... bang, miracle!
I'm not saying this is what happened, I never met the guy.... but it is one possibility.

I'm saying the hearing problem could have been caused by something else that got well for some reason.... once you watch enough Dr House episodes, these occurrences become the norm!

Not you nor anyone else noticed the guy had a shorter leg... and then you actually witness the leg lengthening by 1/4 inch?!...
You can't see that, you don't have the required precision.
And that's like 6 mm... you can correct that with a simple insole.

I know what I saw and felt. You weren’t there, so how can you know?

You saw what you wanted to see. That much is clear.

And still this god thing lets millions die of starvation and easily treatable illnesses elsewhere... puhlease!

God has His reasons for allowing suffering. Read John Paul II’s Salvifici Doloris for more information.

And how would this John Paul II know about it? does he have a hotline to the ever after?
Gullible people will be gullible.

I've provided a few tangible ways by which this god of yours could reveal himself... instead... you give me misdiagnosis and ridicule healings.

God is not your puppet. A little humility is needed here.

and a lot of gullibility.

You better contact the nearest muslim and tell him that! You have two usuals around this forum: rayan and Muslim Sholar.... enjoy telling them about their contradictions... while they tell you about yours.

In the meantime.... I'll be laughing at both.

I suppose I should be more careful about what I say about Muslims. We all know Islam is a religion of peace. I do not like the thought of one blowing me up or the CIA/FBI investigating me either.

I wouldn't worry about blowing up of getting checked out over some discussion on an internet forum...
I'd be in serious trouble, then!

Did he now? And you know this because?....

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 St. Paul said, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.”

He wrote this within a decade of two of the Resurrection.

J.K.Rowling wrote about Harry Potter right after each school year that he had.
And your point is?

In short, the same thing as Drich.... Luke whatever.... A/S/K, mustard's seed worth of faith... and you'll get it.
Sorry, I do not accept self-brainwashing as a reliable method to determine reality.

Suit yourself. I was just trying to be helpful.

Helpful?
You were trying to get me to accept your perception of the realm of the dead.
I didn't buy it. Let's agree to disagree and shake on it.

I'm out of here for a few days. Have a nice weekend!

You too... We're having a holiday on Monday, so I get one extra resting day!