Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 23, 2024, 4:56 am

Thread Rating:
  • 2 Vote(s) - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
#41
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.
(July 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm)SteveII Wrote: We are not in a good position to assess the probability of whether God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evils that occur. As an example, under Chaos theory, large systems are sensitive to the smallest fluctuation. A butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away. The same applies to any single event in human history. From a perspective only available to God, there is no way to see how allowing any event OR intervening in any event will affect other events.
How do you square that off with your statement in the other thread in which you said:

Quote:A miracle is an event that cannot occur naturally. But that does not leave out the possibility of an outside force causing such an event to happen. No laws of nature are broken since natural laws assume only natural causation.

If even the seemingly most insignificant event as a butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away, then by God intervening in nature, there are going to be a myriad of effects and these should be scrutable to the same degree that other causal chains are. Otherwise, you're suggesting that god intervenes to re-arrange the ENTIRE chain of natural events (a clear violation) which stem from the original miracle or intervention of natural processes.

Quote:Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil. Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.
There need be no basis for moral 'absolutes' any more than there need be an absolute basis for defining what a human being is. Those categorical distinctions are classifications we make, nature does not. Our justification for doing so is based off our experiences of brain states (or for taxonomists, specimens) by which we compare and contrast, and label for various purposes. This applies to our deities as much as it does to our social norms. And your free will remark reminds me of the lovely anecdote when Sir Arthur Eddington discovered that atoms are composed primarily of empty space...the morning after he was actually paranoid to get out of bed due to fear that he might fall through the floor. Clearly, his discovery does not effect a person's sense of solidity when approaching a brick wall. Neither does free will entail that our own motivations to act do not or cannot have prior causes.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 9:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 9:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 7, 2014 at 10:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 10:24 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 9, 2014 at 1:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 11:23 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 7, 2014 at 8:05 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 10:56 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 12:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 9:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 11, 2014 at 3:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 7, 2014 at 10:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 12:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 12:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 12:44 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 7, 2014 at 11:54 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 7, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 7, 2014 at 12:46 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 1:12 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 3:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ignoramus - July 7, 2014 at 10:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 7, 2014 at 4:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 4:59 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 7, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 7, 2014 at 6:06 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Cato - July 8, 2014 at 10:12 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 10:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 12:40 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 10:20 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 10:40 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 8, 2014 at 11:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 9, 2014 at 12:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jackalope - July 9, 2014 at 5:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 10:33 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 11:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 12:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 8, 2014 at 12:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ShaMan - July 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 8, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 8, 2014 at 4:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 9, 2014 at 3:12 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ThomM - July 9, 2014 at 12:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Silver - July 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 7:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 10, 2014 at 8:38 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by smax - July 9, 2014 at 4:43 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 9, 2014 at 8:43 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 9, 2014 at 3:45 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 9, 2014 at 6:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 9, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 10, 2014 at 7:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 10:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 10, 2014 at 7:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 10, 2014 at 11:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Welsh cake - July 10, 2014 at 11:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 10, 2014 at 4:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Crossless1 - July 10, 2014 at 4:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ShaMan - July 10, 2014 at 7:17 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 5:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 11, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 10:41 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 11, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 11, 2014 at 11:46 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 12, 2014 at 1:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 2:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 17, 2014 at 12:56 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 17, 2014 at 10:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Crossless1 - July 17, 2014 at 10:59 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 17, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 17, 2014 at 11:13 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 21, 2014 at 7:21 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ryantology - July 21, 2014 at 9:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 1:02 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 14, 2014 at 6:17 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 15, 2014 at 12:50 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 12:46 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 1:11 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 11:04 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 13, 2014 at 12:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 13, 2014 at 12:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 13, 2014 at 12:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LostLocke - July 13, 2014 at 1:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 12, 2014 at 5:36 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 12, 2014 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 12, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 13, 2014 at 2:29 pm
RE: Why - by alexwenzel - July 13, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 14, 2014 at 12:15 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 14, 2014 at 12:32 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 12, 2014 at 2:45 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Zidneya - July 12, 2014 at 3:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:54 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by LastPoet - July 12, 2014 at 4:25 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by CindysRain - July 12, 2014 at 5:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 12, 2014 at 6:30 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 12, 2014 at 6:42 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 12, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 13, 2014 at 1:40 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 14, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 15, 2014 at 10:57 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 15, 2014 at 11:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 16, 2014 at 12:16 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 16, 2014 at 1:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 16, 2014 at 5:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 16, 2014 at 5:48 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 16, 2014 at 6:41 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 16, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 16, 2014 at 9:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Natachan - July 16, 2014 at 8:49 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 16, 2014 at 10:19 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ryantology - July 17, 2014 at 4:24 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 14, 2014 at 12:24 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by alexwenzel - July 16, 2014 at 12:45 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Ravenshire - July 21, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 17, 2014 at 4:54 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Chad32 - July 17, 2014 at 11:22 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 21, 2014 at 3:35 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 21, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 21, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 9:44 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 10:42 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 22, 2014 at 1:29 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 3:51 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 12:42 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 22, 2014 at 2:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Tonus - July 22, 2014 at 11:02 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 12:38 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 22, 2014 at 3:48 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Angrboda - July 22, 2014 at 6:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by ignoramus - July 21, 2014 at 9:31 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 21, 2014 at 10:16 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 22, 2014 at 1:43 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 22, 2014 at 3:40 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 22, 2014 at 6:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Mudhammam - July 23, 2014 at 1:33 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 8:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Bad Wolf - July 23, 2014 at 9:09 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 9:23 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 10:18 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 1:00 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 10:25 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 10:31 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 10:53 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 11:28 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Heywood - July 23, 2014 at 11:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 12:06 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Baqal - July 23, 2014 at 12:10 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 12:27 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 10:25 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 10:55 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 11:06 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 11:10 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 11:32 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Minimalist - July 23, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 2:08 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 23, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 2:33 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Dystopia - July 23, 2014 at 2:22 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by pocaracas - July 23, 2014 at 5:18 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 23, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 23, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by SteveII - July 24, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 24, 2014 at 9:01 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Jenny A - July 24, 2014 at 9:58 am
RE: Why "mysterious ways" don't matter. - by Esquilax - July 24, 2014 at 10:09 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Christians: Can you see why atheists don't buy this stuff? vulcanlogician 49 5269 August 19, 2018 at 8:03 pm
Last Post: vulcanlogician
  Why don't we have people named Jesus? Alexmahone 28 6538 April 5, 2018 at 8:17 pm
Last Post: Jenny A
  Why i don't respect your religion or your faith dyresand 39 14097 September 16, 2015 at 4:08 am
Last Post: TheRocketSurgeon
  Two ways to prove the existence of God. Also, what I'm looking for. IanHulett 9 3953 July 25, 2015 at 6:37 am
Last Post: ignoramus
  Why does Jesus' "suffering" matter? luka 99 24494 July 21, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Last Post: Pyrrho
  The questionable morality of Christianity (and Islam, for that matter) rado84 35 8468 July 21, 2015 at 9:01 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Why do gospel contradictions matter? taylor93112 87 22199 April 28, 2015 at 7:27 pm
Last Post: Desert Diva
  Three Ways to Torture Demons You Haven't Heard of Yet JesusHChrist 15 5416 February 16, 2015 at 8:07 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  The crucifixion of jesus and why it doesn't matter dyresand 54 11579 February 11, 2015 at 3:19 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Why Don't Christians Have A Jubilee Year Like In The Bible Nope 18 8466 December 19, 2014 at 4:18 pm
Last Post: Drich



Users browsing this thread: 16 Guest(s)