Why "mysterious ways" don't matter.

[SteveII]

We are not in a good position to assess the probability of whether God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evils that occur. As an example, under Chaos theory, large systems are sensitive to the smallest fluctuation. A butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away. The same applies to any single event in human history. From a perspective only available to God, there is no way to see how allowing any event OR intervening in any event will affect other events.

How do you square that off with your statement in the other thread in which you said:

A miracle is an event that cannot occur naturally. But that does not leave out the possibility of an outside force causing such an event to happen. No laws of nature are broken since natural laws assume only natural causation.

If even the seemingly most insignificant event as a butterfly flapping its wings might produce a hurricane 10,000 miles away, then by God intervening in nature, there are going to be a myriad of effects and these should be scrutable to the same degree that other causal chains are. Otherwise, you're suggesting that god intervenes to re-arrange the ENTIRE chain of natural events (a clear violation) which stem from the original miracle or intervention of natural processes.

Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil. Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.

There need be no basis for moral 'absolutes' any more than there need be an absolute basis for defining what a human being is. Those categorical distinctions are classifications we make, nature does not. Our justification for doing so is based off our experiences of brain states (or for taxonomists, specimens) by which we compare and contrast, and label for various purposes. This applies to our deities as much as it does to our social norms. And your free will remark reminds me of the lovely anecdote when Sir Arthur Eddington discovered that atoms are composed primarily of empty space...the morning after he was actually paranoid to get out of bed due to fear that he might fall through the floor. Clearly, his discovery does not effect a person's sense of solidity when approaching a brick wall. Neither does free will entail that our own motivations to act do not or cannot have prior causes.

First, I appreciate the tone of your post. Others seem to substitute slurs and ridiculous comparisons for substantive conversation.

My mention of chaos theory was to support the sentence that we are not in a position to judge if God has a morally justified reason for allowing something to happen. The discussion on miracles was in the context of science proving that no such thing exists. If God chooses to cause a miracle to happen, He would still know the infinite ramifications of it.

Your mention of re-arranging the entire chain does not apply if you believe that God already has the foreknowledge of everything that will happen. The miracle would have already been part of the chain.

Believing there are no objective moral values is a philosophical slippery slope. Judgments about right or wrong are not possible. If Hitler had won WWII and established his new order with his views, would it still have been wrong to exterminate the Jews and other undesirable people groups? Is it objectively wrong the way women are treated in Afghanistan?