(July 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm)SteveII Wrote: Alternatively, I'm sure you have all heard that if God does not exist, there would be no basis for moral absolutes and therefore nothing could really be good or evil. Even more disturbing is that free will is an illusion and everything that happens is determined by your molecules--further destroying the argument that good and evil exists.
Actually, the more I thought about this comment from you, the more it irritated me, and so I think I'm not just going to let it slide.
Yes, I have heard these claims before: they're no more true now that you've said them, than they were the last time I heard them. Without god there may be no authoritarian absolutes, but that certainly doesn't mean we would be bereft of moral standards, and I think it's quite rude of you to assume this is so without first asking us what we thought. Did you really think we wouldn't have an answer?
The truth is, there are still objective facts, truths to be known about ourselves and the setting in which we operate, through which morals can be derived. Granted, they aren't made up of some external matter called "morality" that god dispenses to us, but since you haven't demonstrated that such a thing exists I see no reason to consider its absence a problem. But we're human beings, living organisms with consistent responses to stimuli; we can certainly build up a moral system based on how actions and the consequences of those actions impact conscious beings. Life is important, without life we wouldn't have anything, therefore, safeguarding life becomes a moral principle we can stand by. We enjoy pleasure, and dislike pain and what it entails, so there's two more general principles to go on. Complex moral systems can be built from simple beginnings such as these, just by addressing various contexts and scenarios in the light of the basic objective facts we all share.
And it's frankly insulting to all our intelligence that you think we could never figure out that, say, murder was wrong, without god.
Now, how about you: if god commands an immoral act, does that act become moral?
As to your free will contention, I urge you to look up "compatibilism." Should resolve that quite easily.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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